Is there value in adhering to a traditional Lenormand system? If so, what is it?

[Teheuti]

If you make a list of the 3-4 primary meanings of the 36 cards, you'll find that they are far more in agreement than they are in disagreement among all the different countries. As you get into secondary and tertiary (modern) meanings and things like Near/Far or even reversals, you'll begin to find a little (or a lot) more variation. Still, you'll find that most people will see Garden as social networking and Stars as the internet or web in that they develop out of the 'functional' aspects of the primary meanings (rather than being allegorically symbolic).

TarotLyn: The oldest meanings of the Petit Lenormand can be found in the instruction sheet that accompanied almost all 19th and early 20th century Lenormand decks in every language. You can see it in English here:
http://lenormanddictionary.blogspot.com/p/book-communicates-secret.html
We know that this instruction sheet was published with the Glück deck that Helen Riding considers one of, if not "the," earliest Petit Lenormand deck, c. 1846. The original version was signed by Philippe Lenormand (supposedly the nephew and heir of Mlle Lenormand).

These meanings accord fairly well with what few meanings are given in the Spiel der Hoffnüng game (1799). And they are almost exactly the same meanings found in early coffee ground and tea leaf reading manuals, including a German one from the mid-18th century.

Erna Droesbeke uses this instruction sheet as the basis of her text in the booklet that comes with the CartaMundi deck. These meanings correspond pretty closely with almost all of the verses found on the decks themselves (at least until very recently and who knows what we'll come up with in the near future).

 

[Teheuti]

Another reason for adhering to the traditional system - at least while you are learning - is that if you switch one meaning it can interfere with lots of other card meanings, sometimes in a whole domino effect where you end up having to give new meanings to many or even most of the cards. If you make Bear mean "business" (as I've seen many people do), then what happens with other cards having to do with commerce and work? All the cards can relate to work if your question is about work, but when your question is on another topic then why would you still insist that cards that have other functions take on a function that rightly belongs to other cards?

Interestingly there is no "work/career/profession" card in the old meanings, which is probably why different countries tended to settled on Fox, Anchor or Moon to serve that purpose. Ship was the main "wealth through commerce or inheritance" card, in addition to travel. The former has become more of a secondary meaning in modern systems, probably because travel has become an important factor in our daily lives.

 

[kalliope]

If you make a list of the 3-4 primary meanings of the 36 cards, you'll find that they are far more in agreement than they are in disagreement among all the different countries. As you get into secondary and tertiary (modern) meanings and things like Near/Far or things like reversals, you'll begin to find a little (or a lot) more variation. Still, you'll find that most people will see Garden as social networking and Stars as the internet or web in that they develop out of the 'functional' aspects of the primary meanings (rather than allegorically symbolic).

Very clearly stated -- that agreement between the countries' traditional readers is what I think of as traditional. And your observation that I bolded above is a really important one. It's a unique quality of Lenormand that distinguishes it from most other oracles.

 

[Richard]

So take the meanings which are common to the most popular traditions, and that constitutes what may be called The Traditional Meanings (by definition, as it were). That's clear enough. Am I correct in assuming that the Grand Tableau is the most traditionally orthodox of the reading methods?

 

[Teheuti]

So take the meanings which are common to the most popular traditions, and that constitutes what may be called The Traditional Meanings (by definition, as it were). That's clear enough. Am I correct in assuming that the Grand Tableau is the most traditionally orthodox of the reading methods?

The 4x8+4 Grand Tableau is part of the original instruction sheet. I believe that a 4x9 layout appears at some point in some later versions of this text. I assume people adapted some playing card layouts to use with the Lenormand cards, but I don't know when shorter layouts first appear with Lenormand cards as I don't read French or German.

 

[tarotlyn]

I tried to raise this issue in another thread, but no one would take the bait. Are the origins lost forever in the dim mists of antiquity? If so, then maybe there is no way to determine which meanings should be considered traditional. Or maybe there are several equally valid traditions, in which case how can following a single particular tradition necessarily facilitate communication between different Lenormand users? These hard questions are the interesting ones.

Yes, LRichard, I do see your point. You said:
"...then maybe there is no way to determine which meanings should be considered traditional.
Or maybe there are several equally valid traditions..."

So, LRichard, hon, which system is the right one to follow? Each person says that *theirs*
is the correct system, excluding Mary possibly, but others I know claim their is the right one.

That right there is confusing to new people, and is the reason that I read with *all* the traditions
*together* and use what applies (from each separate system) to my reading situation.
This makes it hard to recommend any particular traditional system to a new person. They
kind of have to figure this out for themselves by *trying* all the different systems and
glean from each one what exactly works for them. That is the only answer I can find, since
no one is coming forward with the proof a particular system as the only one and true traditional system.

Thank you for commenting on my post, I appreciate that.
Love and Light
Lyn

LOL ETA:
You also said: "...no one would take the bait" HA HA...because they don't know the answer!

 

[Teheuti]

since
no one is coming forward with the proof a particular system as the only one and true traditional system.

You asked for the name and date and proof of an original system. I gave it to you and your only response is that "no one is coming forward with the proof of . . . the only one and true traditional system."

Why does the instruction sheet I mention not qualify? See http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3614402&postcount=21

I certainly don't say that the original system (signed by Philippe Lenormand) is the "only one and true system," because I don't think it is ANY LONGER, but at one time (and for at least a hundred years) it was so! And, I don't think it should be summarily dismissed as if it never existed.

Why are you ignoring this evidence without even bothering to acknowledge it or tell us why it doesn't qualify?

I don't read French or German, but I believe it would be possible to trace the development of the more modern variations from this original document. With Erna Droesbeke, for instance, I'm told that although her first Lenormand book closely adheres to the 19th century text, she began to create spreads, the use of reversals, and add modern meanings that she made up based on her own experience as a reader. As in other fields, each practitioner who writes a book seeks to leave their own mark on the tradition. This does not mean that there is no tradition or bare bones skeleton underlying what most traditional readers do.

Another example is the use of houses (36 position meanings). One method of using "houses" clearly derives from Lenormand's Nines or the Master Method that was first described in French in 1876(?) as a technique for playing cards using a 4x9 layout and later a 6x6 layout of positions with core meanings similar to traditional Petit Lenormand keywords. I think people LATER started using the key ideas of the cards laid out in their numerical order as house meanings. So, there are two alternate systems but it is easy to see how they are derived.

 

[tarotlyn]

If you make a list of the 3-4 primary meanings of the 36 cards, you'll find that they are far more in agreement than they are in disagreement among all the different countries. As you get into secondary and tertiary (modern) meanings and things like Near/Far or even reversals, you'll begin to find a little (or a lot) more variation. Still, you'll find that most people will see Garden as social networking and Stars as the internet or web in that they develop out of the 'functional' aspects of the primary meanings (rather than being allegorically symbolic).

TarotLyn: The oldest meanings of the Petit Lenormand can be found in the instruction sheet that accompanied almost all 19th and early 20th century Lenormand decks in every language. You can see it in English here:
http://lenormanddictionary.blogspot.com/p/book-communicates-secret.html
We know that this instruction sheet was published with the Glück deck that Helen Riding considers one of, if not "the," earliest Petit Lenormand deck, c. 1846. The original version was signed by Philippe Lenormand (supposedly the nephew and heir of Mlle Lenormand).

These meanings accord fairly well with what few meanings are given in the Spiel der Hoffnüng game (1799). And they are almost exactly the same meanings found in early coffee ground and tea leaf reading manuals, including a German one from the mid-18th century.

Erna Droesbeke uses this instruction sheet as the basis of her text in the booklet that comes with the CartaMundi deck. These meanings correspond pretty closely with almost all of the verses found on the decks themselves (at least until very recently and who knows what we'll come up with in the near future).

So sorry, Mary, I think I missed your post...thank you!

I read your information, and I think you are indicating that you think that the German meanings
are the first traditional meanings.
Also I see that Erna Droesbeke is German and has written the following book I just found
on amazon.com:
Das Orakel der Mlle Lenormand [Perfect Paperback]
Erna Droesbeke von Enge
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3038193011/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

So a question I have is this:
You said you don't read with German traditional meanings, nor the French traditional meanings,
but if you follow Erna Droesbeke, doesn't she teach the German method?

So from what you wrote then, are you indicating that the German's are the first to come
up with the 36 Lenormand cards and the meanings we are using today? (or are the closest in our present interpretations?)

Now I am wondering why people reading with the German traditional meanings (they state)
are using the card 'snake' as a woman, when in your 'translated' meanings for the Gluck deck
which you think is the first deck, the snake doesn't say woman, it says what I also believe to
be true about the snake - dangerous. Plus I did copy and print out your translated meanings
and most of them I think I use already.

Also, it doesn't say anything about fox being work...
Your translation of the Gluck, first ever 36 lennie deck with meanings, says the fox is not
to be trusted or something similar to that - natha about 'work'. So why are people using
the German traditional meanings (they say they are) are saying work for fox, and woman for snake?
Have they changed the German meanings then? Just wondering.

These Gluck meanings suit me well and sit with me very well, and I think I could use those
as true 'traditional' meanings, now that you have documented your findings. (unless of course,
there are other decks out there that are older than the Game of Hope or the Gluck deck)
That could certainly change the whole playing field.

However, I really like these meanings (Gluck) as they are so close to what I am using now.

Thank you so much, Mary
...again so sorry, that I missed seeing your very well documented post.

Hugs, Lyn

 

[Teheuti]

I think you are indicating that you think that the German meanings are the first traditional meanings.
Also I see that Erna Droesbeke is German and has written the following book I just found
on amazon.com

You said you don't read with German traditional meanings, nor the French traditional meanings, but if you follow Erna Droesbeke, doesn't she teach the German method? . . .
So from what you wrote then, are you indicating that the German's are the first to come
up with the 36 Lenormand cards and the meanings we are using today?

I never said that I don't read with German nor French traditional meanings! Please show me where you think I said that! I said I don't read German or French (so I haven't been able to read all their Lenormand books or trace the development of the ideas in those works).

Erna Droesbeke is Belgian, writing originally in Dutch and translated into German and French and ?. Only one of her books is in English; I believe the first. Björn Meuris, who is Belgian, and is writing a book on the development of traditional Lenormand techniques, especially as passed down verbally, has explained this in some detail on the FB Lenormand Study Group.

Yes, a German created the Spiel der Hoffnüng (1799) - http://lenormanddictionary.blogspot.com/p/meet-johann-kaspar-hechtel.html. In addition to being a race game the instructions also stated that it could be used for fortune telling.

Germans appeared to have re-purposed it in 1845-6 as the Petit Lenormand, appropriating Mlle Lenormand's name as a selling point. The first meanings, given in the 1846 instruction sheet, were originally published in German.

As I've stated several times and in various ways these meanings have evolved and been added to over time.
For instance, I wrote above:

I certainly don't say that the original system (signed by Philippe Lenormand) is the "only one and true system," because I don't think it is ANY LONGER.

Note: "ANY LONGER" is capitalized.

the snake doesn't say woman, it says what I also believe to
be true about the snake - dangerous. . . .
Also, it doesn't say anything about fox being work. . . .
Have they changed the German meanings then? Just wondering.

I wrote earlier in these discussions:

Interestingly there is no "work/career/profession" card in the old meanings, which is probably why different countries tended to settled on Fox, Anchor or Moon to serve that purpose.

As I've noted many times already, modern associations have been added for things that were left out. Some of them are standard across most countries, some of them are not. Many are classic associations made in North European folklore. It's one reason why most teachers suggest that a student start by following a particular country's version, so that they won't get confused at first by what appears to be significant contradictions but which prove IN MOST CASES to actually be relatively minor.

I feel like I keep making these same points over and over without being heard.

What has been a slow accretion of new meanings that get tried out and dispersed through experienced readers and teachers, is suddenly in danger of of getting drowned out in an avalanche of "intuitive," symbolic and allegorical meanings, many of which don't make sense in terms of the whole system (because the people coming up with these "intuitive" meanings aren't experienced enough to know how they affect the whole).

I think I could use those as true 'traditional' meanings, now that you have documented your findings. (unless of course, there are other decks out there that are older than the Game of Hope or the Gluck deck). That could certainly change the whole playing field.

That's what history is all about. We write the story with the evidence we have but have to be willing to change it all as new evidence comes to light. It's part of what makes history (like science) so exciting - new facts cause us to reconsider everything we know about a subject.

Others, like Helen Riding and I have mentioned this historical material many times on the FB Lenormand Study Group. I wrote about it here as soon as I got back on the computer and saw your request for "proof".

 

[Teheuti]

Very clearly stated -- that agreement between the countries' traditional readers is what I think of as traditional. And your observation that I bolded above is a really important one. It's a unique quality of Lenormand that distinguishes it from most other oracles.

Kalliope - Thanks for listening (err, reading) what I wrote. Yes, I think that the modern "traditional" Lenormand meanings tend to follow function far more than allegorical symbolism.