Is there value in adhering to a traditional Lenormand system? If so, what is it?

[kalliope]

One of the simpler ways of describing the difference between the Lenormand and other cards that I've always liked is:

You read the Birds card the same way regardless of which deck you're using. The depiction of the symbol itself doesn't factor in. You really COULD read 36 cards with just the titles written on them, and in fact that would be an excellent way to learn. (That's sometimes tossed around almost as an insult in tarot circles.)

 

[kalliope]

BTW, my current favorite translation for the Grand Tableau is "Big Picture" - as in getting the "big picture" of my life, rather than a brief snapshot (short layout).

I like that!

 

[Teheuti]

But if someone decided that Woman-Ring meant that "this woman is a snob" (because the Ring looks like a snooty rich woman's ring), that would be an extrapolation based on the symbolic Ring. Or if Man-Fox means "a man with fancy clothes" because a reader always thinks of her grandmother's fox stole when she sees that card, that's a personal association. The Key meaning "being locked up in jail" or Lilies meaning "a funeral" because one thinks of them as funeral flowers, the Coffin meaning "going to an Egyptian museum exhibit" because one has the Mystical Lenormand and the card depicts a sarcophagus (or Ship-Coffin meaning "a trip to Egypt" for the same reason)... This is the personal slang I was referring to above. These are now oracle readings to me, because the Lenormand language isn't being used, the images are. Should we still call this Lenormand reading?

Kalliope - These are really wonderful examples of meanings that become too personal to be understood by other Lenormand readers. As you note, such associations might work for someone if they are using Lenormand as an oracle, but they can't really be shared because each person will have their own personal associations. You'd never have consensus on a spread. But you might be in awe of someone who consistently got specifically accurate readings by doing the above.

So, if one is looking to be mysterious and come up with answers that no one else could possibly get, then that's the way to go. Some people are genius at reading this way. But it doesn't foster learning from or with others, and, in my experience, not too many people doing the above will become standout, consistently great readers.

 

[Teheuti]

I've noticed that the better one knows the Lenormand system, the more and better one's intuition functions in a reading. And, if this reader gets stuck or the querent questions what is seen, the reader can always go back-to-basics for correction or confirmation.

 

[kalliope]

But you might be in awe of someone who consistently got specifically accurate readings by doing the above.

So, if one is looking to be mysterious and come up with answers that no one else could possibly get, then that's the way to go. Some people are genius at reading this way. But it doesn't foster learning from or with others, and, in my experience, not too many people doing the above will become standout, consistently great readers.

Exactly. I don't mean to belittle what these especially intuitive readers can achieve. As you say, they're often the ones we're in awe of! But most of us won't find success down that road. And we should call this spectacular thing they're doing something other than "Lenormand Reading" for clarity and accuracy's sake. Especially since they can pretty much read anything and get fantastic stuff -- the medium is usually just a foil for their intuition.

I've noticed that the better one knows the Lenormand system, the more and better one's intuition functions in a reading. And, if this reader gets stuck or the querent questions what is seen, the reader can always go back-to-basics for correction or confirmation.

I've started to see this as true with my own readings, and hope it continues to be the case!

 

[tarotlyn]

Hi! kalliope

Re: your post 7 hrs ago to me:

You have just said exactly what I feel. Every word does agree with what I tried to say or express.
Thank you for that!

I am having an *ah ha* moment right now because of something someone just mentioned to me.

Re: traditional v/s intuitives
Maybe *part of* the problem is actually due to the 'emblems' (images) on each card *changing*
because of the many new Lenormand deck creators! They are *adding* *other* things to
the cards that are *not* traditional. Maybe that is the real problem! Maybe the problem is
NOT just with the intuitives!

For instance, you said: "...the Coffin meaning "going to an Egyptian museum exhibit"
because one has the Mystical Lenormand and the card depicts a sarcophagus
(or Ship-Coffin meaning "a trip to Egypt" for the same reason)"

Most intuitives read by *looking* at an emblem (image) on the card. So if something has
been changed or added to the traditional emblem (image) that is not traditional, that could
also be the problem, since intuitives use the card images.

And yes, regarding that an intuitive may look at the ring card and deem it to mean "a snob"
is way out there, and something that, I don't believe, will ever be controlled. You just cannot
control an intuitive's mind! LOL There are just going to be those way out there readers and
there is not much that can be done, except in your own immediate sphere, if you choose to do so.

I really believe that all the traditional schools WILL REMAIN in tact. Why? Because of the
museums we have. They are preserving and have preserved the oldest decks, and meanings,
such as Mary has recently found for us.

Maybe part of the solution is in helping (gently advising) new deck creators. For instance
here on AT, in the creation thread, when they come there for guidance with their decks,
traditionalists could offer their insight in that area.

So traditionalists could "Bloom where they are planted."

Other than that, what else can be done? Rather than just discussing, why not find a solution?
Or even a partial solution? Start a new thread: "Why the traditional meanings work"
or "Why Lenormand newbies would benefit from traditional meanings" - LOL just a thought.

I do agree with most everything said in this thread.

Because of falling in love with the Lenormand, it's simplicity, and it's accuracy, I have found
a certain 'respect' for it and it's history. Yes, I know, I do add a cat, money, work, and a
sex card to my decks, but I still keep the traditional meanings for those subjects.

I added those, the same as the person that had added 4 more cards were to the original 32 card deck
that Mary found. Those 4 cards were added to give further clarity to the deck. That is
what I have tried to do.

Surely in the 1700's and 1800's there were cats in people's households? LOL
Surely they worked?
And surely they owned money and assets?
And surely they had sex, besides the type represented on the whip card (which is mostly a
punishment, argumentative, or abuse card). What about the gentle love-making?
Where was the card for that...no not the Lilies...I just don't see that.

Well, now there is a card for CAT, MONEY, WORK, AND INTIMATE SEX...
These work well in the deck, as long as we keep the traditional 'meanings' for them.

My purpose was to keep the different schools from disagreeing over which card represents
these 4 subjects. Now, when an intuitive sees a cat...they see a cat not a dog. When they
see a money card, they see real money, not a fox or bear. Same with work, they now see
a person at work, not a fox or an anchor. Same with the sex card...they don't see birchrods or whips now.

So I am guilty of adding to the traditional emblem cards... 4 more cards. For me, I found it
necessary to stop all the confusion between the schools. (At least within my own readings).
However, I also make the 36 traditional cards available for hard core traditionalists -guess it
should be 32 traditional cards, since Mary discovery.

No one has to buy a certain deck if they don't want to.

Sorry... back to the intuitives... yes, I agree, we should *KEEP* leading them along the
traditional meanings path, regardless of the challenges.

Actually, this thread is helping- IF intuitives happen to read it...

How about a new thread that says: "Why intuitives use traditional meanings FIRST"

...don't tell them that they *should* use traditional meanings...
...they will go the opposite direction for sure then!

Just let them know the *benefits* of doing so. Let them know that their readings will be
more accurate by using the traditional meanings.

And for heaven's sake, please *DO* come *together* and decide upon ONE school of
traditional meanings, or at least tell the intuitives it is okay to glean meanings from each of
the country's traditional schools as workable. Quit confusing them and everyone else.

*find that common ground*

Make a treaty, make a union... come together... blend *all* the different schools together.

Stop confusing the intuitive with disagreements among the different schools. Stop saying
"My way is the only way." or "My school is the only school."

I think the preserving *begins* with the traditionalists *agreeing* and coming *together*
into ONE MAIN TRADITIONAL SCHOOL of meanings. That would stop all the confusion.

Then maybe an intuitive and/or newbie would be able to better use the 'traditional' meanings and methods.

Maybe it shouldn't always be: "the intuitives are doing it wrong" and "the traditionalists are doing it right"

Exactly *which* traditionalists are doing it right anyway?

don't tell me you are right... or you over there are right... we don't know for sure...

It is even possible that people escaped from one country and took their country's tradition
over to another country - only to have their own country's meanings *adopted* by the new country!
Just saying. What you think is one country's school could very well be from another country's school.

... maybe it should be: *the traditionalists should all get along* ...
*the traditionalist should all come together with one song.*

...then intuitives and newbies will be more willing to get on the bandwagon...

Hugs, Lyn
also: Love and *Light*

 

[frelkins]

Let me say this as directly, and also as nicely, as I can. I don't mean to offend. Let me assure some here that there is much less confusion than they fear.

May I politely remind everyone that there is a large collectibles market in cards, particularly in Europe? That there are well-known playing card catalogs, journals, histories, museums, professional art historians, scholars of games, registered dealers & accredited appraisers?

There is much less mystery to the history and editions of these cards than people make out, and this should be obvious. Serious collectors & museum curators have done and constantly do research, publish the results, and on this the market is based. People have a serious financial interest in cards, and so there is not the great lack of accurate information some like to suppose.

There appears to be a tendency to seek after exotic OOP works by European cartomancers, but that is not the best place for accurate historical information on card history or publishing.

Why do so many neglect reliable resources in the antique collectibles market? If you seek the full publishing or edition history of a certain pattern, why not place a quick phone call to the relevant expert card appraiser in New York, London, or Munich? Why not buy one of the annual card collectible guides, or consult the senior collectors at the well-known associations, such as 52+Joker, IPCS, or BDK? The vast majority of these experts speak wonderful English.

Some of these decks are 6-figure-values, a few 7. They are well catalogued from Lady Charlotte on, and lots of dealers anre in and out of the museums all the time. Museums have important exhibits and publish authoritative catalogues, which are easily consulted. Probably the most important catalog has long been online, was written in 1901 and is completely in English. Antique magazines and newspaper advertisements can also be searched with surprising success on Google and then run through the Translate feature to give you the gist if need be.

Mary has stated here the pertinent facts repeatedly, as documented by reliable and authoritative sources. The so-called Petit Lenormand decks are only approx. 160 years old unlike tarot and thanks to the strong tax systems of Germany and France, dating editions & publishers via tax info is not that difficult, even granted that some records have been lost for obvious historical reasons. (The East German record is apparently rather confused, also for obvious reasons. )

As the dealers & collector have made markets and sought to establish value, they have naturally compiled and made public a large amount of interesting and accurate information. I suggest those interested consult these resources, if only to stop paying twice as much as stuff is worth on ebay.

Best wishes.

 

[Teheuti]

First, people use the word "intuitive" in many different ways. I've written about it often and have no intention of repeating it all here. Essentially, intuition involves finding patterns and a meaning in sensory experience that's compared with stored experience, bypassing, in a flash, the step-by-step rational faculty. ESP (psychic ability) is extra-sensory - information that is not in the immediate environment or known to the psychic. Intuition derives from knowledge and experience. For a medical condition, I'd trust the intuition of a medical professional (not necessarily AMA) more than I would someone without any medical knowledge. Likewise, I trust the intuition of an outstanding teacher more than I do the average student in the class.

I know a natural empath who immediately picks up when there is something wrong in a group, but she has no idea how to order, articulate or explain what she perceives and usually just makes a hash of her attempts to do so. Like Cassandra, nobody listens to her because she hasn't the knowledge to explain herself.

Although a beginner might have an occasional flash of brilliant insight, it is usually not reliable, consistent or explainable. A trained intuitive (trained both in accessing intuition and in their field of knowledge) often can. Otherwise, why would someone seek out a reader with many years of experience and not just grab any young person on the street and say, "Read my cards!"?

Maybe *part of* the problem is actually due to the 'emblems' (images) on each card *changing* because of the many new Lenormand deck creators! They are *adding* *other* things to the cards that are *not* traditional. Maybe that is the real problem! Maybe the problem is NOT just with the intuitives!

Many traditionalists can read with any deck! They ignore the picture and stick with the function of the card. Some traditionalists prefer some visual cues, like the direction a figure is facing, and may have problems with a deck that runs contrary to what they are used to. There's no one way.

Most intuitives read by *looking* at an emblem (image) on the card. . . . intuitives use the card images.

Not necessarily. I am always being told how intuitive I am when doing a reading, but the image itself may have little to do with it, especially with Lenormand. I resent being told I'm "not intuitive" simply because I know and work with the traditions! On what evidence am I being judged and by whom? I prefer BOTH/AND.

I suggest spending a year following questions posed in a Lenormand group and the answers proposed. If you know the Lenormand traditions and are on a group where people explain how they get their answers you can easily see who is applying the traditions and who is simply offering their "intuition." If in doubt, ask (I do). When the result comes in, see who is most consistently correct in their responses.

I've been doing such an examination for over two years. I am not a scientist and haven't tried to put it into statistical language (I wouldn't know how to begin), yet I can still recognize who is most consistently right on. I follow their posts with special interest.

Changes are not "The Problem"; they can cause more or less problems depending on the person perceiving them. We can't stop change. There aren't any Tradition Police, although some will 'police' what's going on in their groups in hopes of keeping a focus on learning and keep from getting too far off track.

Maybe part of the solution is in helping (gently advising) new deck creators. For instance here on AT, in the creation thread, when they come there for guidance with their decks, traditionalists could offer their insight in that area.

Nice thought. It already happens; some will pay attention and some won't.

a new thread: "Why the traditional meanings work"

If you have an answer for that, please tell me.

or "Why Lenormand newbies would benefit from traditional meanings"

Isn't that what we are doing here?

I added those [extra cards], the same as the person that had added 4 more cards were to the original 32 card deck
that Mary found. Those 4 cards were added to give further clarity to the deck.

Actually, we don't know why Hechtel added four more cards. Perhaps it was just that he was making a multi-purpose game utilizing one of the most popular playing card decks of the period - the 36-card Jass deck!

And surely they had sex, besides the type represented on the whip card (which is mostly a punishment, argumentative, or abuse card). What about the gentle love-making?
Where was the card for that...no not the Lilies...I just don't see that.

Have you read the old meanings? Birchrod/Whip was not a sex card. Lilies represented morality and immorality (among other things), and there were very good reasons as to why it may have been considered a sex card at that time. I believe that people coming out of the closet about BDSM led to using Whip as more of a recreational/non-traditional sex card.

My purpose was to keep the different schools from disagreeing over which card represents these 4 subjects.

You are not the first as there are many variations in the Lenormand deck, including the 52-card Gypsy Witch, or the 36-card Old Gypsy, Lenormand Bijou, and others. Plus there are plenty of other cartomancy decks to choose from.

I also make the 36 traditional cards available for hard core traditionalists -guess it
should be 32 traditional cards, since Mary discovery.

I consider the 32 Viennese Emblematic Fortune-Telling Cards to be pre-Lenormand. But that's just my own way of looking at the on-going development of a cultural trend and artifact.

Just let them know the *benefits* of doing so. Let them know that their readings will be more accurate by using the traditional meanings.

LOL, you think no one has ever mentioned this before?

And for heaven's sake, please *DO* come *together* and decide upon ONE school of traditional meanings, or at least tell the intuitives it is okay to glean meanings from each of the country's traditional schools as workable. Quit confusing them and everyone else. . . . Make a treaty, make a union... come together... blend *all* the different schools together. . . . I think the preserving *begins* with the traditionalists *agreeing* and coming *together* into ONE MAIN TRADITIONAL SCHOOL of meanings. That would stop all the confusion.

LOL. Just who are you thinking should do this? Please take on the task yourself if you feel it is so important. But I'll speak against it. Personally, I find the different "dialects" to be fascinating, and I have no intention or desire to decide on "ONE school." And it's not a matter of right or wrong but of what works. If you think a newbie is better able to judge that than someone who has been reading Lenormand for a long time (like many of the traditionalists I know), then more power to you.

What you think is one country's school could very well be from another country's school.

So, I recommend hanging out at a forum/group where there are people from all over the world who contribute their knowledge. A few think their way is "right" (and all the others are "wrong"), but most are interested in learning variations from each other. I've discovered, by hanging out with a very international group, that there are more similarities than differences, and the differences are fascinating and enlightening.

*the traditionalists should all get along* ... *the traditionalist should all come together with one song.*
...then intuitives and newbies will be more willing to get on the bandwagon...

Sounds to me like this is reducing everything to the lowest common denominator and "universalized testing". I'm not interested in appealing to self-styled "intuitives" or newbies. Yes, I'm willing to teach, but not to your specifications - no matter how well-meaning you may be.

Mary

 

[Teheuti]

Personally, I advocate learning everything one can about intuition and psychic development as well as learning everything one can about one's chosen tool(s) - including history, tradition, and the various lineages and contemporary fads. But, that's just my style.

 

[tarotlyn]

LOL Mary