Zephyros
Yes... this is actually untrue, for several reasons.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah_as_Moon-god
By the way, kwaw, that astrolabe is gorgeous!. I would give anything just to look at it up close. Do you have information about it?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The Tarot symbols origin
Yes... this is actually untrue, for several reasons.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah_as_Moon-god
By the way, kwaw, that astrolabe is gorgeous!. I would give anything just to look at it up close. Do you have information about it?
kwaw
By the way, kwaw, that astrolabe is gorgeous!. I would give anything just to look at it up close. Do you have information about it?
The info was on my old computor, I will try and dig it up - I remember off-hand that there are three or four medieval astrolobes with Hebrew inscriptions (one from Bologna c.1400) - this one may be from the British Museum...?
Edited to add : there is a pdf here concerning an astrolabe with arabic/hebrew and latin inscriptions, but which also makes reference to other astrolabes with Hebrew inscriptions:
http://www.ub.edu/arab/suhayl/volums/volum3/paper 1.pdf
Some other google search results:
http://warburg.sas.ac.uk/research/projects/jewish-astrolabes/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/about/transcripts/episode62/
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod...al-knowledge.pdf?c=fia;idno=11879367.2010.006
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...astrolabe spanish 14th century hebrew&f=false
Ross G Caldwell
It's in the Adler Planetarium, and dates from the mid-14th century.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe/a/hebrew_astrolabe.aspx
There is an article in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies on it here -
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/544796?uid=3738016&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102562263157
(you can sign up for three free articles every two weeks from JSTOR, which is a very useful service for scholars not affiliated with a subscribed institution.)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe/a/hebrew_astrolabe.aspx
There is an article in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies on it here -
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/544796?uid=3738016&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102562263157
(you can sign up for three free articles every two weeks from JSTOR, which is a very useful service for scholars not affiliated with a subscribed institution.)
kwaw
Ah Thanks Ross: Here is what the Bristish Museum entry says:
Culture/period Late Medieval term
details Jewish
Date14thC
Production placeMade in: Spain (?)(Europe,Spain)Made in: Italy (?)(Europe,Italy)
Materials brass (Tested and confirmed)
term details
Techniquee engraved
Dimensions
Height: 11 centimetres (includes the throne)
Thickness: 0.4 centimetres (MATER plate)Thickness: 2.18 centimetres (fully assembled)Diameter: 9.2 centimetres
Curator's comments
This exquisite small astrolabe with quatrefoil decration is one of the very few known instruments of European origin with markings in Hebrew.
Other instruments with Hebrew markings are in collections in Chicago and Paris. The BM instrument is neither signed nor dated, but the style and the month names used suggest it might have been made in 14th century Spain or Italy.
See Bernard R. Goldstein, The Hebrew Astrolabe in the Adler Planetarium, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 35, 1976, 251-260 (repr. in B. Goldstein, Theory and Observation in Ancient and Medieval Astronomy, London 1985, paper xix) with detailed discussion of the BM instrument.The detailed markings on the plate for 40 degrees may indicate that the instrument was constructed for this latitude which would include places such as Toledo and Naples, for example.
It's on youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TsM6ls5G1Cc
Also on BBC radio's History of the World in 100 Objects:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/aU8eDjPFTQy35wPaAhSLGg
Culture/period Late Medieval term
details Jewish
Date14thC
Production placeMade in: Spain (?)(Europe,Spain)Made in: Italy (?)(Europe,Italy)
Materials brass (Tested and confirmed)
term details
Techniquee engraved
Dimensions
Height: 11 centimetres (includes the throne)
Thickness: 0.4 centimetres (MATER plate)Thickness: 2.18 centimetres (fully assembled)Diameter: 9.2 centimetres
Curator's comments
This exquisite small astrolabe with quatrefoil decration is one of the very few known instruments of European origin with markings in Hebrew.
Other instruments with Hebrew markings are in collections in Chicago and Paris. The BM instrument is neither signed nor dated, but the style and the month names used suggest it might have been made in 14th century Spain or Italy.
See Bernard R. Goldstein, The Hebrew Astrolabe in the Adler Planetarium, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 35, 1976, 251-260 (repr. in B. Goldstein, Theory and Observation in Ancient and Medieval Astronomy, London 1985, paper xix) with detailed discussion of the BM instrument.The detailed markings on the plate for 40 degrees may indicate that the instrument was constructed for this latitude which would include places such as Toledo and Naples, for example.
It's on youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TsM6ls5G1Cc
Also on BBC radio's History of the World in 100 Objects:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/aU8eDjPFTQy35wPaAhSLGg
kwaw
If anyone and their kids were familiar with what the trumps represented I imagine it was with familiarity with such images as they appear as church and cathedral decorations, paintings of judgment, carnival and triumphal processions, dance of death series, mystery plays et al.
It is comparatively significant in this connection that the card decks and games invented by Fernando de la Torre (circa 1450) and Matteo Maria Boiardo (circa 1470) were not based on any obscure or esoteric doctrines, alchemy or astrology, but were pure poetic creations of their own.
While not 'everyone and their kids' would have been familiar with it, a lot of people (including their kids) were; it was the leading scientific tool and cultural must have of its period and not some 'obscure or esoteric' doctrine. As pointed out in the BBC program Chaucer's Instructions on the Astrolabe was written for his 10 year old son. No more obscure or esoteric than Boiardo's classical scheme around the four passions full of historical, literary, mythological and biblical figures and numercial/alphabetic puzzles. And while they were games, with a humanistic educational environment games of skill were valued for their educational value and could be adapted/used for example to teach numeracy skills or as memory devises for points of grammar or poetic invention. As I said I do not believe there is an astromical/astrological scheme to the structure, but that is not because the subject was too obscure or esoteric, but because beside a few such elements in a few cards the structure simply does not follow the well known astrological schemes of the period, but rather can be found in abundance in other cycles people would have been familiar with (biblical, literary, dance of death, triumphs, carnivals, fall of princes, etc.,).
DoctorArcanus
I think DoctorArcanus means that anyone familiar with astrology in the 15th/16th centuries who saw an image such as the TdM Moon card would associate it with the Moon, ruler of Cancer, rather than with the constellation or sign of Cancer itself.
Thank you for clarifying what I meant, Kwaw!
... Why the Tarot MA pictures couldn't be star maps isn't explained by you "(which was not intended as a map)".
Hello Cartomancer,
the Tarot trumps were not intended as a map because they were intended as a sequence. A map is a two-dimensional representation of a complex structure (typically, a geographic area). A sequence is a one-dimensional ordered arrangement of items.
We know that the trumps were intended as a sequence from early (XV-XVI Century) sources such as the Steele Sermon or Piscina's Discorso. We also know that the trumps were an ordered sequence from their usage as an "additional suit" in tarot card games. And of course, at later times, the trumps were numbered, making the order of the sequence explicit.
A historical theory about the meaning of tarot must explain the order of the sequence, as well as the images and their traditional names. Why should Sagittarius be represented as Death (with a scythe, in most cases) and named "La Morte" ("Death")? It is clearly simpler (and hence more correct) to interpret the card as an allegory of Death.
For an excellent explanation of the meaning of the trump sequence and the importance of providing such an interpretation, see Michael J. Hurst's blog:
http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2007/11/iconography-and-order-of-cards.html
This recent post is particularly relevant, since it makes clear that making sense of the single cards does not conclude the task of providing a comprehensive interpretation of the trump cycle:
http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-modern-catholic-looks-at-tarot.html
Cartomancer
The Major Arcana as the Visconti/Sforza family plainisphere
Hello DoctorArcanus,
I have to agree with you that the Tarot trumps are in a sequence.
However, I believe that they could have existed as a star map as well picturing the Sforza family and important events and themes on a Sforza family celestial plainisphere.
Bianca Maria Visconti, Duchess of Milan, was pictured as the Virgin Mary (i.e. Saint Mary with the Child Jesus Christ portraying Galeazzo Maria Sforza or Lodovico il Moro), as Saint Lucia, as Saint Margaret, as Saint Mary Magdalene, as Saint Catherine of Alexandria with her husband as Saint John the Baptist, as the Goddess Venus (with her son Galeazzo Maria as the God Amor), and possibly other great female figures.
It is logical that Bianca Maria Visconti be pictured as Cassiopeia, the queen of the heavens in a card known as the Empress.
Her husband, Francesco Sforza (1401-1466), Duke of Milan, was pictured as Adam, as Saint Dominic, as Saint Franziskus of Assisi, as Saint William of Aniane, St. John the Baptist, as Saint Anthony Abbot, as Solomon, as St. Joseph. The Emperor (Francesco Sforza) can be seen in the stars of Cepheus, known as the king of the heavens.
Here are links to show to what extent this couple went to portray themselves as legendary:
Pictures of Bianca Maria Visconti:
http://www.kleio.org/en/history/famtree/sforza/826.html
Pictures of Francesco Sforza:
http://www.kleio.org/en/history/famtree/sforza/449.html#6309a
The marriage of Bianca Maria Visconti and Francesco Sforza is probably pictured in the Lovers card, but the lovers are a personification of Perseus and Andromeda with Pegasus above them possibly as Archangel Gabriel.
The Strength card may be a portrayal of Galeazzo Maria Sforza or Lodovico il Moro as Hercules, possibly as a child or young man.
Other researchers have found the family likeness in the Visconti/Sforza decks and described the links between images or icons in the Major Arcana cards with the Visconti/Sforza family. What family member was pictured in the Chariot card?
I believe that a constellational explanation of the Major Arcana cards is better supported by actual star maps than allegories can claim. Pictures of virtues or such is not a theory I agree with.
I have gone to the links you posted, but did not find much new information.
-Cartomancer
Hello Cartomancer,
the Tarot trumps were not intended as a map because they were intended as a sequence. A map is a two-dimensional representation of a complex structure (typically, a geographic area). A sequence is a one-dimensional ordered arrangement of items.
Hello DoctorArcanus,
I have to agree with you that the Tarot trumps are in a sequence.
However, I believe that they could have existed as a star map as well picturing the Sforza family and important events and themes on a Sforza family celestial plainisphere.
Bianca Maria Visconti, Duchess of Milan, was pictured as the Virgin Mary (i.e. Saint Mary with the Child Jesus Christ portraying Galeazzo Maria Sforza or Lodovico il Moro), as Saint Lucia, as Saint Margaret, as Saint Mary Magdalene, as Saint Catherine of Alexandria with her husband as Saint John the Baptist, as the Goddess Venus (with her son Galeazzo Maria as the God Amor), and possibly other great female figures.
It is logical that Bianca Maria Visconti be pictured as Cassiopeia, the queen of the heavens in a card known as the Empress.
Her husband, Francesco Sforza (1401-1466), Duke of Milan, was pictured as Adam, as Saint Dominic, as Saint Franziskus of Assisi, as Saint William of Aniane, St. John the Baptist, as Saint Anthony Abbot, as Solomon, as St. Joseph. The Emperor (Francesco Sforza) can be seen in the stars of Cepheus, known as the king of the heavens.
Here are links to show to what extent this couple went to portray themselves as legendary:
Pictures of Bianca Maria Visconti:
http://www.kleio.org/en/history/famtree/sforza/826.html
Pictures of Francesco Sforza:
http://www.kleio.org/en/history/famtree/sforza/449.html#6309a
The marriage of Bianca Maria Visconti and Francesco Sforza is probably pictured in the Lovers card, but the lovers are a personification of Perseus and Andromeda with Pegasus above them possibly as Archangel Gabriel.
The Strength card may be a portrayal of Galeazzo Maria Sforza or Lodovico il Moro as Hercules, possibly as a child or young man.
Other researchers have found the family likeness in the Visconti/Sforza decks and described the links between images or icons in the Major Arcana cards with the Visconti/Sforza family. What family member was pictured in the Chariot card?
A historical theory about the meaning of tarot must explain the order of the sequence, as well as the images and their traditional names. Why should Sagittarius be represented as Death (with a scythe, in most cases) and named "La Morte" ("Death")? It is clearly simpler (and hence more correct) to interpret the card as an allegory of Death.
I believe that a constellational explanation of the Major Arcana cards is better supported by actual star maps than allegories can claim. Pictures of virtues or such is not a theory I agree with.
I have gone to the links you posted, but did not find much new information.
-Cartomancer
ravenest
Just a thort
That's true. Not that I intend to form an opinion on this general subject yet ...( just reading at the moment - and for the life of me some of these posts just don't make sense .... to me) but the above reminds me that the maps of the heavens and the constellations CAN form a sequential story. Maybe not 'back then' or 'there' but certainly 'before then' and since, up to now and in various places including here.
I have just got back from a visit to indigenous friends and a large part of the stories shared are cemented in or result in landscape with its reflection in starscape (or visa versa).
Parts of the traditions here cannot be understood (nor even initiation taken in them) without seeing the 'constellations' in 'a one-dimensional ordered arrangement of items' (e.g. the boy that bit the end off the wild dogs ear is a sequence of tales right across the night sky and into the milky way and along it, virtually like a cartoon strip).
- But this isn't the society that developed Tarot.
the Tarot trumps were not intended as a map because they were intended as a sequence. A map is a two-dimensional representation of a complex structure (typically, a geographic area). A sequence is a one-dimensional ordered arrangement of items.
That's true. Not that I intend to form an opinion on this general subject yet ...( just reading at the moment - and for the life of me some of these posts just don't make sense .... to me) but the above reminds me that the maps of the heavens and the constellations CAN form a sequential story. Maybe not 'back then' or 'there' but certainly 'before then' and since, up to now and in various places including here.
I have just got back from a visit to indigenous friends and a large part of the stories shared are cemented in or result in landscape with its reflection in starscape (or visa versa).
Parts of the traditions here cannot be understood (nor even initiation taken in them) without seeing the 'constellations' in 'a one-dimensional ordered arrangement of items' (e.g. the boy that bit the end off the wild dogs ear is a sequence of tales right across the night sky and into the milky way and along it, virtually like a cartoon strip).
- But this isn't the society that developed Tarot.
Zephyros
Maybe. Like you, I don't have an opinion on the matter, others have obviously done their research on this and have formed opinions, while I haven't. Still, the constellations themselves probably originally developed as an educational mnemonic, to impart lessons and stories, much like Tarot itself. In time ths stories themselves became ubiquitous symbols, i.e., one doesn't even need to tell the story of Little Red Riding Hood anymore, the mere mention of the name means "don't talk to strangers."
Debra
Navigation and time-keeping.
