Zephyros
Of course that was their purpose, but that's not why they were given names of gods and goddesses, histories, stories according to their places in the sky, etc.
The Tarot symbols origin
DoctorArcanus
DoctorArcanus said:
Hello Cartomancer, would you please answer my question and provide a few examples of the Sagittarius constellation holding a scythe as in ”Charles VI” Death card?
Would you also please answer my other question: why was trump XIII known as La Morte (Death) and not “Sagittarius”?
It is perfectly clear to me that you do not agree with the meaning that renaissance Italians attributed to Tarot. What is not clear to me is which criteria “better support” constellations than allegories when explaining the trumps. It is not so much a matter of “believing” and “faith”, it is more a matter of considering the facts. I am happy you are creating a tarot deck inspired by constellations: this seems to me a valuable project. But why is it necessary to impose your personal inspiration as “the original meaning of the trumps”?
For instance, let's consider:
The Visconti-Sforza Death card
The Vienna Sagittarius Constellation
The Palermo allegory of Death (1440 ca)
Code:
VSDeath Constellation Allegory
The subject is a centaur N Y N
The subject is decomposed Y N Y
The subject has a bow Y Y YThe only similarity between the Constellation and the Visconti Sforza trump is the bow. While the Palermo allegory represents the skeleton of a person with a bow, just as in the trump.
If we consider the larger context of the Palermo Fresco, we see other details: Death is defeating a large number of people, who represent all humanity, including a Pope and an Emperor. This is exactly what happens in Tarot: Death (XIII) defeats (trumps) the Emperor (IV) and the Pope (V). We see this not only in the trump sequence, but also in some single death cards, such as the above mentioned ”Charles VI”. Can you see the corpses under Death's black horse?
In one of the posts I linked, Michael Hurst presents an illustration from Petrarch's Trionfi poem. The image represents Death defeating a large number of people (including a Pope, an Emperor and a Fool). Michael explains that the three layers of the picture (bottom to top) correspond to the three sections of the trump sequence: the Ranks of Mankind (0-V), an allegory of human life (VI-XIII), afterlife, i.e. an eschatolocial narration (XIV-XXI) such as that we find in the Book of Revelation.
Currently, your Constellation theory fails to explain:
* the details in the single cards (only matching a few details, such as the bow of Death/Sagittarius). Charles XVI Death card has absolutely nothing to do with Sagittarius. The skeleton, the scythe, the black horse and the corpses are not associated in any way with Sagittarius, but are common in allegories of Death;
* the traditional names of the cards (as far as I know, no card ever brought the name of a constellation, with the only accidental exception of "il carro");
* the meaning of the trump sequence.
I think you can claim that you have a theory which is “better supported” than the moral allegory interpretation only if you can provide better explanations for all the three points above.
Cartomancer
I must agree with you on this point. My historical theory must explain the order of the sequence as well as the images and their traditional names. At this point I have not given a detailed reason for the order or the sequence of the images, why the images appear as they do, and why the traditional names of the 22 Major Arcana are not identical with the names of the constellations that I suggest that the Tarot cards represent.
How you interpret the Death card is your business and if you prefer to interpret it as an allegory of Death, then please do so.
Why the so-called Death card is a portrayal of the constellation Sagittarius the Archer is complicated, but looking at an early picture of the Death card in the Visconti-Sforza deck notice that there is no title and no sickle, but the skeleton man holds a bow:
File:Visconti-sforza-13-death.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Visconti-sforza-13-death.jpg
It might have been easier to depict Sagittarius without a horse because of the size of the card, but that problem was solved by making the image smaller. During that period of time the concept of death and time as well as its iconography was undergoing change, and the sickle became a popular symbol associated with Death. Previously the sickle was seen in the constellation Leo.
Perhaps we should choose a deck to argue about. My assertion is that the earlier Tarot decks such as the Visconte-Sforza deck's Major Arcana more closely portrayed constellations than later decks, although there are many examples of modern knowledge of the constellation connection to the Tarot as evidenced by the portrayal of the Hierophant and the Hermit in the Waite-Smith deck as Bootes and Ophiuchus in the Julius Schiller star atlas: Coelum stellatum Christianum.
This is a good question that probably has many answers. I believe that the names such as Death, Justice, etc. are metaphors or symbols for the constellation names. Many people associate the Justice card, a woman with balance scales, with the constellation Libra. How would you fit the name "Sagittarius" on a small card when you could simply write "Death"? But stretching the number of letters in the Popess card to "High Priestess" is a big graphic enlargement of the title. Some of the early Tarot trumps had no name or number, so did everybody know their name or number or was it left to their imaginations?
Actually, I don't know much about the Renaissance Italian Tarot attributions. I appreciate that you have reviewed my attributions of a set of trumps as traditional constellations and found it a worthy project. I hope to add more mock-ups of the trumps and an index in a new thread.
It is also true that I should provide "better support" for constellations as the origin of the Tarot Trumps, but I don't expect you to accept my thesis on faith or belief. I do expect to provide facts, but then we will have to come to some kind of agreement about what information can be considered facts. Personally, I think that graphics and art are a good indicator of facts as well as early writings about the subject, although all of that would be subject to investigation and verification. In regard to my imposing my personal inspiration about "the original meaning of the trumps", I understand that my viewpoint may be unpopular, but there are many people with strong opinions on this and other forums that by taking a stand on a matter or issue gets discussed more. I appreciate your poking holes in my thesis, but somehow you are strengthening my arguments by making me explain myself more adequately.
I think that the bow connection is key. How the constellation Sagittarius became a skeleton in the Death cards might be explained by the fact that Sagittarius lies in the Milky Way and that the intersection of the Milky Way and the ecliptic in Sagittarius is one of the Gates of Mem, the gateway to death. Mem in Hebrew means:
The Phoenician and Paleo-Hebrew form of Mem is a wavy line with the meaning of "water". The Hebrew letter Mem can be seen in the constellation Sagittarius as a symbol for "water".
The other gate is Cancer, the entry portal, the gate of birth.
Why is there a crown in many of the Death cards? That crown below the horseman is Corona Australis, the Southern Crown. I'd be interested if a box or lighthouse has appeared in any of the Death cards as the ancient Greek Aratus saw a lighthouse in the nearby constellation Ara.
Yes, I see the corpses under Death's black horse. The death images provided are a compelling indication that the sickle became a symbol of death. I believe that Corona Australis represents the crown of royalty, whom you see as the Emperor. The nearby constellation Ara may offer a connection to clergy or the church or the Pope in a Death card.
I can concede that some of the Tarot trump cards were illustrated with allegorical and theological images, but I insist those images were associated with constellations in some way.
In one of the links you provided I found this quote: "In A Wicked Pack of Cards, Ronald Decker, Thierry Depaulis, and Michael Dummett put it this way: “The test of whether a coded text has been correctly deciphered is that it allows a coherent message to be read.” (Page 250.)"
I suggest that the Tarot trumps are a code that can be deciphered in a number of ways. We must look at the trumps for what they picture. What you see is what you get. The code can be understood as a sequence of constellations that are portrayed in the Tarot trumps. Why the trumps and their corresponding constellations are in the order they are in is a long story that is best explained in the Kabbalah and Alphabets section.
Please help me to better understand what needs to be explained better as three points:
1. Constellation theory needs to explain "the details in the single cards ..."
This could be a fascinating discussion about constellational details that can be seen in the trumps, such as the crown under the horse in the Death card. For the most part the images seen in the early cards match the area of the sky they are seen.
2. Constellation theory needs to explain "the traditional names of the cards (as far as I know, no card ever brought the name of a constellation, with the only accidental exception of "il carro")";
"il carro" refers to the Chariot card, which is the exception of the application of a constellation's name to a Tarot trump. I assert that "il carro" is not an accidental exception, but it was one of the cards that had its name carry from constellation to Tarot trump. But "il carro" could refer to any cart or chariot can't it? Attributing the Chariot card to the constellation Auriga the Charioteer is logical. And if one card's name carried through from its constellation origin, what names might be attributed to earlier decks if card names for the trumps are even used. When were names for the trumps first used?
3. Constellation theory needs to explain "the meaning of the trump sequence".
The trump sequence is based on a sequence of constellations used to create the Phoenician alphabet, the Mayan Day Names, counting systems, navigation systems, and calendar systems. It is beyond the scope of this post to explain all of that, I hope to offer information about these matters in future posts.
Some of these points that require an adequate explanation by me should be done in a sequence a step at a time or, more succinctly, a card at a time. There are easy cards to explain as constellations, but some are best pictured by using allegorical or theological images that closely simulate the actual constellations, which one of the reasons we may have a different perspective in this matter. I will have to agree with you that allegorical images contributed to the Tarot trumps, but those images helped personify or exemplify the constellations in the sequence. However, it is probably better to address some of the easier trump images first.
Thanks for asking interesting questions.
-Cartomancer
kwaw
Well if constellation names carried through in the names of some cards, then the tower/house of God/Trump XVI would fit better with Sagittarius, one of the old names for the card being 'the arrow' (sagitta), and the ruler of Sagittarius being Jupiter, whose emblem is the lightning bolt... (and XVI is the number of cells in a magical square of Jupiter based on it being the fourth celestial sphere - 4x4*); and also the 9th house which corresponds to Sagittarius** is also called 'the house of god' - so a connection is even carried through intothe later TdM. However, you say Sagittarius fits with death, so in this case the relationship with the title of a card to a constellation would be 'an accidental exception'... ?
(If attribution is to be made on a single iconographic element, totally divorced from the context of the rest of the image in which it appears, in this case the presence of a bow and arrow, then surely the same argument may be applied to the Lover card too?)
Kwaw
* We may note that the only other number in the trump series that we could associate with a magic square is of 9 cells, the Square of Saturn (3x3), which in some patterns is the place of the Hermit/Time and so also relates in such numerical sequences with Saturn.
** The correspondence between sign and house in the traditional astrology of the time was not to the same extent as with modern theosophically influenced astrology - but was still there in certain contexts, such as that of 'zodiacal man' and medical astrology.
Cartomancer
In regard to the constellation Sagittarius being a representation of the Death card, I couldn't find art examples of a scythe and the constellation Sagittarius, but the constellation Corona Australis looks like a scythe or a hand held sickle and it is located at the foot of the constellation Sagittarius as shown in this star map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corona_Australis_IAU.svg
It is noted about Corona Australis: "the oval- or horseshoe-shaped pattern of its brighter stars renders it distinctive". Take a look at the curved pattern of stars that resembles a curved blade and the green lines that are drawn that make it look more like a scythe.
Look at these examples of curved blade sickles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle
Look at these examples of the scythe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe
Perhaps Sagittarius and Corona Australis were the origin of the horseman with a scythe.
I thought the answer to your question about the scythe was hiding in plain sight.
The Death card has a scythe because Corona Australis looks like a scythe or sickle.
- Cartomancer
kwaw
... at least that has some association with death in that in one myth it was called the wreath, and was said to be placed in the sky by Bacchus in commemoration of his dead mother Semele.
Not a very strong point in its favour of course, in that in terms of their Greek/Roman myths most of the constellations were placed in the sky by one divine being or another to commemorated some creature or another after their death...
ravenest
This is why I said above that 'some' of the posts are confusing. Cartomancer's connections seem ... well .... lets just say I don't see them.
That stuff about corona australis seems extreme barrel scrapping to me.
Its the southern crown or crown of Australia. One could say it looks like a crescent moon therefore the constellation next to it is related to the Priestess.
Or that it is the 'God of Islam' ...
Or am I missing something here?
That stuff about corona australis seems extreme barrel scrapping to me.
Its the southern crown or crown of Australia. One could say it looks like a crescent moon therefore the constellation next to it is related to the Priestess.
Or that it is the 'God of Islam' ...
Or am I missing something here?
ravenest
The stars of this constellation, Corona Australis, represent the wreath "thrown off as by one at play" at the feet of Crotos who is identified with the constellation Sagittarius:
"The constellation, Sagittarius is identified with Crotus, he had his home on Mount Helicon and took his pleasure in the company of the Musae (Muses), sometimes even following the pursuit of hunting... Before his feet are a few stars arranged in a circle, which some said were a wreath, thrown off as by one at play." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.27 http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/SatyrosKrotos.html
The Arabs had the title Al Kubbah, the Tortoise, for Corona Australis. The Chinese knew it as Pee, the Tortoise. Tortoise from Latin tartaruca, is related to the word Tartarus. Corona Australis also had the titles Trokhos Ixionos, and Rota Ixionis, the Wheel of Ixion. Ixion was chained eternally to a revolving, fiery wheel in Tartarus. A picture of Ixion on his wheel can be seen on this Greek mythology link. Ixion is compared with the wryneck bird, genus Jynx, iunx in Greek:
"There are two clues to the special nature of Ixion's wheel. Pindar says that it is 'winged' and that it has four spokes. A four-spoked wheel with wings upon it would have called to mind a word Pindar does not actually use in Pythian 2, the word 'iunx'. The wings referred to are those of a bird, the 'iunx' or wryneck, whose habits in mating apparently intrigued the ancient Greeks enough to result in their use of it for magical rites designed to procure sexual satisfaction from a reluctant partner. The bird was pinned to a four-spoked wheel and the wheel was spun with appropriate incantations uttered over it, to draw the desired partner into the spell..." [Paul A. Iversen, The Ohio State University Dept. of Greek and Latin Center for Epigraphical Studies]
The wrynecks (genus Jynx) are a small but distinctive group of small Old World woodpeckers. These birds get their English name from their ability to turn their heads almost 180 degrees. When disturbed at the nest, they use this snake-like head twisting and hissing as a threat display. This odd behavior led to their use in witchcraft, hence to put a 'jinx' on someone [1].
"Iynx used her enchantments to charm Zeus, or make him, by magic means, fall in love with Io; in consequence of which Hera metamorphosed her into the bird called lynx (iynx torquilla)" [2].
According to another story, Iynx was a daughter of Pierus, and as she and her sisters had presumed to enter into a musical contest with the Muses, she was changed into the bird Iynx. [3]
"Before his [Sagittarius, Crotus] feet are a few stars arranged in a circle, which some said were a wreath, thrown off as by one at play" [Hyginus, Astronomica 2.27], "or one in commemoration of the fivefold victory of Corinna over Pindar in their poetical contest" [below, Allen, Star Names].
Corona Australis was believed to be placed in the sky to commemorate the fivefold victory of Corinna over Pindar in their poetical contest. And in response to these defeats, Pindar called her a sow. Or it is the bunch of flowers that Crotus "threw off as if in play", translated wreath. A posy is a bunch of flowers, and also a short poetic verse or sentimental inscription. Posy is related to poetry, poet, poem, from Greek poiein, to make, create. Corinna (or Korinna) was an Ancient Greek poet, traditionally attributed to the 6th century BC.
Corona Australis is also said to represent the Crown that Bacchus placed in the sky in honor of his mother Semele. Roman Bacchus who is Greek Dionysus also placed the other crown Corona Borealis, in the northern sky in honor of Ariadne. Eventually Dionysus retrieved his mother, Semele, from the underworld, named her Thyone, and placed her crown in the sky.
© Anne Wright 2008.
Extract from 'Constellation of Words'
Where is this 'sickle' ?
"The constellation, Sagittarius is identified with Crotus, he had his home on Mount Helicon and took his pleasure in the company of the Musae (Muses), sometimes even following the pursuit of hunting... Before his feet are a few stars arranged in a circle, which some said were a wreath, thrown off as by one at play." - Hyginus, Astronomica 2.27 http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/SatyrosKrotos.html
The Arabs had the title Al Kubbah, the Tortoise, for Corona Australis. The Chinese knew it as Pee, the Tortoise. Tortoise from Latin tartaruca, is related to the word Tartarus. Corona Australis also had the titles Trokhos Ixionos, and Rota Ixionis, the Wheel of Ixion. Ixion was chained eternally to a revolving, fiery wheel in Tartarus. A picture of Ixion on his wheel can be seen on this Greek mythology link. Ixion is compared with the wryneck bird, genus Jynx, iunx in Greek:
"There are two clues to the special nature of Ixion's wheel. Pindar says that it is 'winged' and that it has four spokes. A four-spoked wheel with wings upon it would have called to mind a word Pindar does not actually use in Pythian 2, the word 'iunx'. The wings referred to are those of a bird, the 'iunx' or wryneck, whose habits in mating apparently intrigued the ancient Greeks enough to result in their use of it for magical rites designed to procure sexual satisfaction from a reluctant partner. The bird was pinned to a four-spoked wheel and the wheel was spun with appropriate incantations uttered over it, to draw the desired partner into the spell..." [Paul A. Iversen, The Ohio State University Dept. of Greek and Latin Center for Epigraphical Studies]
The wrynecks (genus Jynx) are a small but distinctive group of small Old World woodpeckers. These birds get their English name from their ability to turn their heads almost 180 degrees. When disturbed at the nest, they use this snake-like head twisting and hissing as a threat display. This odd behavior led to their use in witchcraft, hence to put a 'jinx' on someone [1].
"Iynx used her enchantments to charm Zeus, or make him, by magic means, fall in love with Io; in consequence of which Hera metamorphosed her into the bird called lynx (iynx torquilla)" [2].
According to another story, Iynx was a daughter of Pierus, and as she and her sisters had presumed to enter into a musical contest with the Muses, she was changed into the bird Iynx. [3]
"Before his [Sagittarius, Crotus] feet are a few stars arranged in a circle, which some said were a wreath, thrown off as by one at play" [Hyginus, Astronomica 2.27], "or one in commemoration of the fivefold victory of Corinna over Pindar in their poetical contest" [below, Allen, Star Names].
Corona Australis was believed to be placed in the sky to commemorate the fivefold victory of Corinna over Pindar in their poetical contest. And in response to these defeats, Pindar called her a sow. Or it is the bunch of flowers that Crotus "threw off as if in play", translated wreath. A posy is a bunch of flowers, and also a short poetic verse or sentimental inscription. Posy is related to poetry, poet, poem, from Greek poiein, to make, create. Corinna (or Korinna) was an Ancient Greek poet, traditionally attributed to the 6th century BC.
Corona Australis is also said to represent the Crown that Bacchus placed in the sky in honor of his mother Semele. Roman Bacchus who is Greek Dionysus also placed the other crown Corona Borealis, in the northern sky in honor of Ariadne. Eventually Dionysus retrieved his mother, Semele, from the underworld, named her Thyone, and placed her crown in the sky.
© Anne Wright 2008.
Extract from 'Constellation of Words'
Where is this 'sickle' ?
Cartomancer
In reply to:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3650070&postcount=168
Ravenest,
Thanks for the question about the sickle (and the scythe).
Not all constellations have names that have survived, although some of them have nicknames and regional names that are local but are forgotten if not recorded. I suggest that the scythe and possibly sickle constellations were known to a certain group of people or that the artist who introduced the scythe to the Death card made up the scythe image by looking at the stars of Corona Australis.
Sometimes an investigator must try to recreate graphical images that may have been lost or were not drawn for a variety of reasons, such as when an image is so well-known that it doesn't seem necessary to actually draw it in a fashion that would become permanent as in a book. So, here are my attempts to recreate the hypothetical Sickle and Scythe constellations in the stars of Corona Australis:
The Sickle in Corona Australis by Lance Carter:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CORONA-AUSTRALIS-Sickle-C-394718585
The Scythe in Corona Australis by Lance Carter:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CORONA-AUSTRALIS-Scythe-C-394718293
The constellation theory has explained these images or icons in the Death card:
* A male figure (In the Death card he is a skelton.)
* A horse with a horseman or as part of a centaur
* A bow (of Sagittarius the Archer)
* A crown (in the stars of Corona Australis)
* A wreath (wreaths are worn by children in the Waite-Smith Death card)
* A scythe (in the stars of Corona Australis)
There are at least 6 images in the Death card that are connected with Sagittarius.
The circlet of stars that looks like a scythe at the feet of the Sagittarius is a clue to why a scythe appears in the Death card.
- Cartomancer
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3650070&postcount=168
Ravenest,
Thanks for the question about the sickle (and the scythe).
Not all constellations have names that have survived, although some of them have nicknames and regional names that are local but are forgotten if not recorded. I suggest that the scythe and possibly sickle constellations were known to a certain group of people or that the artist who introduced the scythe to the Death card made up the scythe image by looking at the stars of Corona Australis.
Sometimes an investigator must try to recreate graphical images that may have been lost or were not drawn for a variety of reasons, such as when an image is so well-known that it doesn't seem necessary to actually draw it in a fashion that would become permanent as in a book. So, here are my attempts to recreate the hypothetical Sickle and Scythe constellations in the stars of Corona Australis:
The Sickle in Corona Australis by Lance Carter:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CORONA-AUSTRALIS-Sickle-C-394718585
The Scythe in Corona Australis by Lance Carter:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CORONA-AUSTRALIS-Scythe-C-394718293
The constellation theory has explained these images or icons in the Death card:
* A male figure (In the Death card he is a skelton.)
* A horse with a horseman or as part of a centaur
* A bow (of Sagittarius the Archer)
* A crown (in the stars of Corona Australis)
* A wreath (wreaths are worn by children in the Waite-Smith Death card)
* A scythe (in the stars of Corona Australis)
There are at least 6 images in the Death card that are connected with Sagittarius.
The circlet of stars that looks like a scythe at the feet of the Sagittarius is a clue to why a scythe appears in the Death card.
- Cartomancer
ravenest
Well aside from lance carter and you .... ?
Even the local indigenous here see Aus corona as a ritual headdress.
You seem to just pull ideas by your own association or by join the dot.
And to me ... that aint history or even valid extrapolation.
Even the local indigenous here see Aus corona as a ritual headdress.
You seem to just pull ideas by your own association or by join the dot.
And to me ... that aint history or even valid extrapolation.
