t.Pluto

[zhan.thay]

:bugeyes: Wow. How long did it take you to learn how to erect charts?

37 years ago it took me about 6 hours poring over a Charles Carter book and the American Ephemeris to cast my own chart (of course). Doing the calculations by hand, using tech drawing skills I learned in high school and a polar graph chart paper that Dad flogged from work. These days it takes a few minutes plugging details into Solar Fire or Astro.com. Minderwiz is right saying that you had already given several details which enabled me to narrow things down. NY, NY wasn't that great a guess tho was it?

You're pretty close. April 7th, 1989 at 9:56 A.M. in Henderson, Nevada.

I had to do a bit of checking there. Solar Fire didn't automatically take daylight saving into account so it gave me wrong house positions. Astro.com did tho. I'm now on the same page.

Pluto is in my 5th house. To me it actually teeters on the edge of my 6th house, but I have been told it is firmly in my 5th. It is sextile Neptune and conj. Saturn. Sigh... again, I wasn't aware that had any affect because they were outers aspecting each other and not personal planets. :/

Each astrologer has their own biases. Mine is that everything affects everything else. To me, the influence of outers to personal factors is valid and worth investigating to decide whether you think it is relevant in your own assessment of your being. These assessments of relevance change over time too. Also you need a critical analysis of the opinions you have access to. If you can read an interpretation and say to yourself, "That works for me. It's truth resonates with the truth of my being." then you have a foundation to work from in the way you think about yourself. Years later you may look back at it and think "How dumb was I to think that. That's bullshit." but it's equally possible that the concept has endured the test of time and you can say "Yes. I have understood this part of my being and I can see where I have been able to use this faculty positively in my life."

I don't think anything squares my Chiron in my chart. My ASC conjuncts it, and then my Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Mars make aspects to my ASC. I'm not sure if that counts though.

Correct. The Chiron square was only in the provisional guesses I made. As above so below. IMHO, all those factors plus others will have an influence on how you project to others and how they perceive your personality.

In any case, I must have a lot of relationship karma. I try my best to see the patterns and learn in my relationships during and after they end, but it's just frustrating they end. I have Mars in the 12th, Saturn in the 7th, and Moon (11H) trine Saturn (trine that 7H stellium actually)

Beware of unconsciously sabotaging your relationships. Don't set up situations where your abilities for criticism are applied to the object of your affection or your beliefs about them hinder your honest expression of emotions. Be firm in your ideals of what you want from relationships but not too earnest. Take time to dream/meditate about the overall picture and the specific love-bubble that you are in when when a relationship is happening for you. Gemini rising can be perceived by others as facile and without substance. Sagittarius looks for answers to the big questions - express your opinions and engage in the debates but use the light-heartedness of Gemini and possibly the quirkiness of Uranus to not get too heavy or entrenched in your position.
My sage for Karma and relationships is Judy Hall: "Patterns of the Past", "Karmic Connections". For comparison: grupovenus.com, cafeastrology.com

Yes, I agree we always have our free will. Ah... I didn't know Pluto could indicate research, plain and simply. That makes so much sense! My 6H is ruled by Scorpio although Pluto itself is in my 5H.

Pluto represents for me an urge to delve deep. Into the common traits you find in your generation and how that affects you. Into the deepest facets of your being. Into the ways to reformulate and regenerate - to put in place new structures of thought and attitude which empower you to realise deep-held ideals. Pluto seen as some sort of ultimate malefic which is unstoppable in its destructive capability is such a negative view that I see no value in having such an opinion. So, Pluto doesn't necessarily indicate research but to use it's influence positively requires research, analysis, assessment and decision. The fact that you are looking into the why's of your relationships while Pluto transits your 7th house indicates to me that you are already engaged in that process. This transit is part of a cosmic environment which can help you. Astrology can be used as a tool of self-discovery and self-improvement. Use the tool.

Thanks for the inspiration.

You're welcome. All the best in love and light

 

[zhan.thay]

I like bugeyes projection If you thing about it, with a Descendant in Sagittarius, your Ascendant must be in Gemini (23:46) and you've given away the rough positions of certain planets, so it's possible to start homing in on years. You are LovelyMissAries, so it's a reasonable guess that your Sun is in Aries and there's a correlation between Ascendant and Sun position for rising signs. That being said, bugeyes has done an great job in homing in on a date.

I object to you calling me bugeyes. That was Lovely's emoticon for Wow! It appears you do like to wind people up. My astrological makeup, however, predicates a disposition to take offense at slights. 2:30am 3 Sep 1955 Wollongong, Australia. Thanks for the compliments. And I am, at times, insect-like in my appraisals of the world. BTW, I think you meant "think" not "thing" and "a great job" not "an great job".

All the best in love and light

 

[Minderwiz]

I object to you calling me bugeyes. That was Lovely's emoticon for Wow! It appears you do like to wind people up. My astrological makeup, however, predicates a disposition to take offense at slights. 2:30am 3 Sep 1955 Wollongong, Australia. Thanks for the compliments. And I am, at times, insect-like in my appraisals of the world. BTW, I think you meant "think" not "thing" and "a great job" not "an great job".

All the best in love and light

My apologies, no slight was intended - that's what comes of attempting multiple quotes using a tablet and not checking the original source properly The typos are also a tablet problem but I should have checked them - I can only offer the lame excuse of the post being late evening and following a couple of glasses of wine

BTW I only try to wind Dave up because he's a good Astrologer and a good friend and we both like a good discussion, especially after we've spent a long time agreeing with each other

PS I still think you did an excellent job with the estimate of LovelyMissAries' chart , though she only attributed the quote to 'homelandman', when I checked her post. my rough guess using the required house positions of Saturn, Neptune and Uranus plus Jupiter in Gemini,and plus the required stellium in Aries (Sun, Mercury and Venus) put her birth between 24 March and 17 April 1989. If we take the Jupiter/Uranus inconjunct as partile (a big 'if') that would narrow down to betwee 4th April and 10th April. Thereafter, it's on to Solar Fire to do some projections using the known Ascendant and the USA as place of birth. There are further clues in house positions of the stellium and the extent of Capricorn but it's still requires a fair amount of trials to get further. Great detective work on your part.

Edited to add The twelfth hour Sun shows that she was born before noon. As the birth is near the equinox I could make a further large assumption - sunrise is around 6:00 to 6:30 am local solar time. Taking a house system that divides the chart on time, that would give an twelfth cusp at approx 8:00 am and an eleventh cusp at 10:00 am. Of course latitude will affect this. Further assuming Sun just past the elventh cusp (Venus is listed as being in the eleventh and Venus is further on in the zodiac, that suggests a local birth around of approx 11:00 am. At the time of my estimated date, daylight saving is in force so that would be around 10:00 a.m. local daylight saving time. That's very approx because of the issue of latitude and the issue of where the birth is in the longitude of the time zone - my location is actually 21/2 degrees west of London, so my local time is 9 minutes or so behind in solar time.

So we have a mid morning birth, in the USA, between 24 March and 17 April but hopefully between 4th and 10th April - time to wheel out Solar Fire

 

[Minderwiz]

Pluto represents for me an urge to delve deep. Into the common traits you find in your generation and how that affects you. Into the deepest facets of your being. Into the ways to reformulate and regenerate - to put in place new structures of thought and attitude which empower you to realise deep-held ideals. Pluto seen as some sort of ultimate malefic which is unstoppable in its destructive capability is such a negative view that I see no value in having such an opinion. So, Pluto doesn't necessarily indicate research but to use it's influence positively requires research, analysis, assessment and decision.

Whilst not necessarily agreeing with the specifics, your general point here is something every astrologer should bare in mind - all planets are capable of indicating the 'good' things in life, as well as the 'bad'. No planet is exclusively one or the other. Without that dualism, they have little value. This goes as much for Jupiter and Venus as it does for Pluto, both are capable of indicating quite bad things such as cancer (excessive and uncontrolled growth) or alcoholism or drug addiction (the consequences of too much 'fun')

Your positive Pluto is well worth reflecting on.

 

[Minderwiz]

Minderwiz, I do take Pluto as Scorpio ruler due to my background in phylology which included extensive study of mythology + ethnology. Death - 8th - Hades (Pluto). 8th is still house of death, we haven't yet accepted the blah-blah about transformation and living forever, yes? Taxes? Thinks of underworld, they have good tax system. Leave everything at the door, we'll take the rest of you. Other people's resources? Yes, especially when they didn't have access to their own anymore. Zombies, vampires, demons inhabiting living bodies... I come from the god, not from the astrological understanding of the planet. I, as a Scorpio myself, do not recognize Mars as good enough ruler for our sign.

We've discussed sign rulership elsewhere and I don't want to divert the thread into that direction. I'd simply make two points. Firstly it's possible to use Pluto and not have him rule any sign at all. Indeed there may be advantages in doing that, as he spends so long in each sign and only spends some 17 years out of 240 in Scorpio. Sign rulership was intended to help show when a planet was strongly placed and when it was not. Note that this does not indicate affinity, only the capacity to act in a positive way. If we try to put such a rulership 'spin' on Pluto then it must have a non-positive effect through most of it's cycle. I don't think that is a desirable view.

secondly you quite rightly describe the eighth house as the house of death - it's also the house of my wife's money, which perhaps makes her a plutocrat But the eighth is not Scorpio. It's links to Scorpio are mainly through the traditional medical model, which has both ruling the genitals - hence Modern Astrology's link with Scorpio and sex. Traditionally Scorpio signifies stagnant pools of water, which I don't think you would associate with Pluto by affinity.

Incidently I do see you as quite 'martial' but in the best way. You are adventurous, sometimes a little rash, prepared to take risks, to fight your corner if necessary but value honour and integrity

I do take your point about the psychological approach, I don't think it's possible to practice jungian Astrology without the outers and clearly Astrology has been altered so that it 'fits' the jungian model. I don't think the traditional rulership model works for Pluto (or the other two outers) for the reason I mentioned above. You therefore come down to an affinity view, if you are linking it to a sign, which either means your limit it's range of expression or you expand the sign meaning to fit the planet. That's why in my re-exploration of the outers, I'm not linking them to sign but to a combination of planetary expressions. At the moment I'm looking at Pluto in terms of a Mars/Saturn blend, which given that Saturn rules your Ascendant perhaps is an indication that I might be on the right track.

I lost a family member when Pluto was on my natal Sun but only after transiting Sun conjunct my natal Pluto.

Thanks for the clarification, with your natal Pluto reasonably close to your natal Sun that would bring the time frame right down.

 

[Ronia]

Eh, Minderwiz... Let's be fair. The rulerships you're talking about were assigned when people didn't even suspect the existence of other planets. Should we discard the achievements of modern science or should we embrace them? I choose the second. How can we expect from astrologers then to assign rulerships to planets about whose existence they had no idea? It's like expecting an 18 or even early 19th century doctor to insist on regular vaccinations. I disagree here.

My second point is again related to a/ my divination background, b/ my faith and c/ my education: as above so below. I firmply believe in this and if I believe in it, astrology should reflect it just like all else around me reflects it. If above are Uranus, Pluto and Neptune, I expect them to be reflected in all else here, below. I'm not willing to pretend they are not there simply because someone hundreds of years ago, not suspecting about their presence, didn't consider them. That's just walking backwards, to me.

Third, I don't believe in "coincidences". That astrologers then chose namely these gods to assign to these planets is not a coincidence to me and it's reflected in the fact that somehow, mysteriously, the strengths/weaknesses/and indeed areas of power of these same gods seem to be part of the planetary influences of the planets who carry their names. And here I, for myself, choose to not ignore the fact that Zeus (Jupiter) had two more brothers, Poseidon and Hades, and that Cronos was indeed there, and that somehow, again mysteriously, I do see the strengths/weaknesses and areas of power of these gods in the planetary influence of these same planets who carry their names. Why would I ignore all this? Was it all a coincidence? I don't think so. And since I don't think so, I do follow the mythology and the fact that the world was separated in three, not in one, and I can't see any justification for taking into account Zeus (Jupiter) but ignoring the other two brothers? Who then will take their rulerships? Is it possible to replace Hades with Ares? To me it's nonsense. Poseidon with who? With the much weaker Moon who indeed rules the tides but I can never see her as a cause for hurricanes. I have my strong doubts about her power to grant public acclaim too, especially when it comes to true fame. I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, this is a very interesting but very long conversation for which I sadly lack the time, hopefully I'm at least pointing at some of my reasons to not ignore these planets.

If the 8th is not Scorpio's house, which one is? The others are occupied. Why do you think I wouldn't see the stagnant waters in Pluto (Hades)? I will indeed. It's the land of death down there, Leta doesn't run fast and joyfully through, it's slow, it's stagnant indeed, silence and darkness, only shadows around... I wouldn't associate him with a happily hopping mountain spring but with a swamp I can associate him very well although the scorpion is actually found in small pools in mini caves or similar. It's probably not only dark but also dirty and stinky, all Pluto likes to expose. How fitting, I'd say.

I do see the connection Hades/Scorpio because of the scorpion's nature not because of any psychology, especially not Jungian (of whom I've had more than enough at the university!). I do see it in the understanding, willful usage and embracing of death. Aside from any poetic and a bit suspicious references about birds willingly dying of broken heart, the scorpion is nearly the only animal out there experiencing death this way. Could Ares justify that? Not to me. Under Ares's guidance people died in war but they didn't exactly do it willingly or by choice. They went to war mostly because they had no choice. By no means am I trying to diminish their courage or strength, just trying to make a difference between "I'll fight for my land even if I have to die for it" and "I can not win, I choose to die and from my own hand". Something like that. It's all about death as the ultimate transformation, change, transition which I can not grant to Ares (Mars). I don't see it in him, as a god, as a symbol and as an archetype. This is what I'm using im my everyday astrology, which lacks much theoretical knowledge, for sure, but I try to see it for real in the people around me. Archetypes.

I think you can see Martian in me simply because we all have Mars in our charts and because he is trining my Sun both by sign and degree, thus injecting it with Martian qualities which the trine helps. Here is one of the areas where to me classical astrology fails. My Mars is supposed to be in a bad condition, especially as I see and feel him more like a 6th house and don't really see him as 7th.

As about Saturn... To me he is the steady, patient, climbing goat indeed. He lacks passion though. he is practical, I am not. I do appear as such at first (Ascendant), I do look younger as I age, I do look very serious... Till the 10th minute or about that long. But the conversation is not about me anyways.

 

[zhan.thay]

my rough guess using the required house positions of Saturn, Neptune and Uranus plus Jupiter in Gemini,and plus the required stellium in Aries (Sun, Mercury and Venus) put her birth between 24 March and 17 April 1989. If we take the Jupiter/Uranus inconjunct as partile (a big 'if') that would narrow down to betwee 4th April and 10th April. Thereafter, it's on to Solar Fire to do some projections using the known Ascendant and the USA as place of birth. There are further clues in house positions of the stellium and the extent of Capricorn but it's still requires a fair amount of trials to get further. Great detective work on your part.

Edited to add The twelfth hour Sun shows that she was born before noon. As the birth is near the equinox I could make a further large assumption - sunrise is around 6:00 to 6:30 am local solar time. Taking a house system that divides the chart on time, that would give an twelfth cusp at approx 8:00 am and an eleventh cusp at 10:00 am. Of course latitude will affect this. Further assuming Sun just past the elventh cusp (Venus is listed as being in the eleventh and Venus is further on in the zodiac, that suggests a local birth around of approx 11:00 am. At the time of my estimated date, daylight saving is in force so that would be around 10:00 a.m. local daylight saving time. That's very approx because of the issue of latitude and the issue of where the birth is in the longitude of the time zone - my location is actually 21/2 degrees west of London, so my local time is 9 minutes or so behind in solar time.

So we have a mid morning birth, in the USA, between 24 March and 17 April but hopefully between 4th and 10th April - time to wheel out Solar Fire

You've done some great detective work yourself. Well done.

I started by hand drawing a chart with all the clues on it as you mentioned the 23 Sag 46 Descendant implies the Ascendant is Gemini in the same degree and I placed the given planets in the stated houses with their stated signs if any.

Knowing that at least one of my sons had the Uranus Neptune conjunction in Capricorn and that Lovely was an Aries from the USA I started a chart in Solar Fire for mid April 1992. Also knowing Sun Aries XI & Asc 23 Gem 46 put birth time ball park mid morning. NY, NY was a guess.

Once I viewed the chart it was obvious Jupiter and Saturn were way in advance of where they needed to be. I started up the Dynamic/Animate Chart tool in Solar Fire, changed the step value to 1 year and stepped back till I saw Saturn join Uranus & Neptune with Jupiter in Gemini and Sun, Mercury, Venus conjunct in Aries. Getting everything in the right houses was then the next challenge. I changed the step value to 1 hour, then 1 minute, then 1 second until I got 23 Gem 46 rising.

If I'd tuned in a bit psychically I might have chosen my Mum's birthdate - 7 April.

 

[Minderwiz]

Eh, Minderwiz... Let's be fair. The rulerships you're talking about were assigned when people didn't even suspect the existence of other planets. Should we discard the achievements of modern science or should we embrace them? I choose the second. How can we expect from astrologers then to assign rulerships to planets about whose existence they had no idea? It's like expecting an 18 or even early 19th century doctor to insist on regular vaccinations. I disagree here.

I was trying to be fair, as I don't think the classical approach to rulership can work with Pluto (and for that matter Uranus and Neptune). Allegedly the Greeks did identify Uranus, but thought it was simply a dim star and made no attempt to track it. Suppose that all three were visible but moved at their 'normal' rates - would the Greeks have treated them as planets? Just possible with Uranus but I doubt they would have done that for Neptune and Pluto because of their slow movement. It's more likely they would have formed an interesting (and relevant) class of objects, not fast enough to be wanderers, but too fast to be fixed stars and don't forget that they did use fixed stars in divination.

My second point is again related to a/ my divination background, b/ my faith and c/ my education: as above so below. I firmply believe in this and if I believe in it, astrology should reflect it just like all else around me reflects it. If above are Uranus, Pluto and Neptune, I expect them to be reflected in all else here, below. I'm not willing to pretend they are not there simply because someone hundreds of years ago, not suspecting about their presence, didn't consider them. That's just walking backwards, to me.

That's a fair point and one that I can't disprove because it's one that is personal to you. Again though, there's no reason why Uranus et al cannot be used and be reflected in your experience without assigning sign rulership and that is the nub of the issue here - what exactly is meant by sign rulership. The Hellenisitic and Medieval systems were methods of assigning strength to planets according to where they were in the zodiac. That system was not just based on sign rulership but also on other dignities - exaltation, triplicity, terms and face. It enabled astrologers to evaluate the ability of the planet, for good or ill' My point is that this system fails with the outers. Pluto was in Scorpio between November 1983 and January 1995. On a traditional basis it was a potential source for good between those years and won't be again till 2285. That's not an acceptable situation. Using it as the ruler of Scorpio in a traditional framework means that there's virtually always a planet in charge which works to the detriment of the person or thing considered. That is clearly something you would not be willing to accept and strangely enough, neither am I. If Pluto is to be included in the traditional rulership scheme, it would have to have further dignities of exaltation, triplicity, terms and face in order to be a force for good, at least some of the time.

The alternative seems to be it's treated like a fixed star or the nature of rulership is profoundly changed to accomodate it. The latter is what has happened in Modern Astrology. Also the meaning of 'Scorpio' has been changed to give it Pluto qualities. So in a real sense here we're in danger of pitting different meanings of rulership against each other.

Third, I don't believe in "coincidences". That astrologers then chose namely these gods to assign to these planets is not a coincidence to me and it's reflected in the fact that somehow, mysteriously, the strengths/weaknesses/and indeed areas of power of these same gods seem to be part of the planetary influences of the planets

Well' with the outers, in no case did Astrologers choose the names of these planets - Astronomers did. Astrologers merely accepted them and then attached mythic meanings to explain their significance (up to that point myth played no role in astrological meanings). So you actually have a double coincidence in which it is Astronomers who correctly divine the true name of the planet and Astrologers meekly follow. That's especially significant with Pluto, as Astrologers who posed the existence of trans-Neptunian planets actually named one 'Pluto'. The discovered Pluto did not conform to the hypothecated position of the astrological counterpart and so Astrologers dropped their own Pluto in favour of the astronomical one. Now your psychological background may well accept that, my astrological background does not - it's a point where we differ but as I said above, I have to respect your personal views here. All I ask is that you recognise it's source is not Astrology but is Jungian Psychology, or at lease an attempt to see Astrology through Jungian eyes. That's not in itself a bad thing, new approaches can indeed shed new light but we need to be clear what their source is.

If the 8th is not Scorpio's house, which one is? The others are occupied. Why do you think I wouldn't see the stagnant waters in Pluto (Hades)? I will indeed. It's the land of death down there, Leta doesn't run fast and joyfully through, it's slow, it's stagnant indeed, silence and darkness, only shadows around... I wouldn't associate him with a happily hopping mountain spring but with a swamp I can associate him very well although the scorpion is actually found in small pools in mini caves or similar. It's probably not only dark but also dirty and stinky, all Pluto likes to expose. How fitting, I'd say.

Well any sign can be on the eighth cusp, in my case it's Pisces. The only things that Scorpio shares in common with the eighth is order (Scorpio is number 8 in the sign sequence) and medical, as mentioned previously - unless you change the meaning of Scorpio to make it more like Pluto and emphasise the link with death (and for some reason, sex). Now again, one can do this as is obviously the case with Modern Astrology - but it leaves itself open not just to constant revision, as the orthodoxy changes, but also to personal revision and we end up with a myriad of different takes and therefore fruitless arguments over the 'real' meaning of Scorpio. This is also the problem with 'affinity' sign rulerships, someone, somewhere will argue that Charon rules Scorpio (being the boatman of the Styx) or even Chiron, preceding the other Centaur sign.

I do see the connection Hades/Scorpio because of the scorpion's nature not because of any psychology, especially not Jungian (of whom I've had more than enough at the university!). I do see it in the understanding, willful usage and embracing of death. Aside from any poetic and a bit suspicious references about birds willingly dying of broken heart, the scorpion is nearly the only animal out there experiencing death this way. Could Ares justify that? Not to me. Under Ares's guidance people died in war but they didn't exactly do it willingly or by choice. They went to war mostly because they had no choice. By no means am I trying to diminish their courage or strength, just trying to make a difference between "I'll fight for my land even if I have to die for it" and "I can not win, I choose to die and from my own hand". Something like that. It's all about death as the ultimate transformation, change, transition which I can not grant to Ares (Mars). I don't see it in him, as a god, as a symbol and as an archetype. This is what I'm using im my everyday astrology, which lacks much theoretical knowledge, for sure, but I try to see it for real in the people around me. Archetypes.

That's a very eloquent personal statement, you may not like Jung anymore but his archytepes remain with you. The tradition places Ares as the ruler of Scorpio not for any martial reasons, but because it is a nocturnal planet and through Valens, a watery planet. Myth is the undoing of the link with Scorpio, even though myth never created that link. You see Ares simply as a war god and search mythology for a reason why he should rule Scorpio and find none. But his planet became the ruler of Scorpio not for any mythic reason. You have given good reasons why you see things as you do, all I ask is that you recognise those reasons are not 'astrological' but 'psychological' or at least 'mythic'. There's no reason why myths cannot be helpful in understanding the world around us - that's largely why they exist and of course they do mold the culture of each age (oddly we use ancient ones?) but Astrology was not meant to be a branch of mythology.

I think you can see Martian in me simply because we all have Mars in our charts and because he is trining my Sun both by sign and degree, thus injecting it with Martian qualities which the trine helps. Here is one of the areas where to me classical astrology fails. My Mars is supposed to be in a bad condition, especially as I see and feel him more like a 6th house and don't really see him as 7th.

Your Sun is not only in the Sign of Mars, it's in his Terms and Decan too. Yes your Mars in Cancer is in detriment, I think that possibly makes you prone to do impulsive things occasionally or take risks believing that things will work out (which they often do). Your Saturn does inject some requirement to plan, especially as it's in dignity. Saturn, in dignity can analyse well and has patience to plan, with Mars it has a Klingon overtone - revenge is a dish best served cold Saturn is also the traditional planet of death - he carries the hour glass and scythe in medieval representations as old father time and of course ruling the skeleton by affinity, he is the perfect model for Terry Pratchett's 'Death'.

I'm not asking you to change your views or saying that your views are wrong. You have strong personal reasons for holding them. I actually enjoy discussing things with you because you have usually thought things through well and make me think through things again - a bit like Dave. It's partly through your posts and his, that I'm revisiting the outers and seeing if I can fit them in to a traditional framework but for me that framework has to be myth free. It's a challenge but I'm beginning to feel my way there, slowly

PS Mars joys in the sixth

 

[Minderwiz]

You've done some great detective work yourself. Well done.

I started by hand drawing a chart with all the clues on it as you mentioned the 23 Sag 46 Descendant implies the Ascendant is Gemini in the same degree and I placed the given planets in the stated houses with their stated signs if any.

Knowing that at least one of my sons had the Uranus Neptune conjunction in Capricorn and that Lovely was an Aries from the USA I started a chart in Solar Fire for mid April 1992. Also knowing Sun Aries XI & Asc 23 Gem 46 put birth time ball park mid morning. NY, NY was a guess.

Once I viewed the chart it was obvious Jupiter and Saturn were way in advance of where they needed to be. I started up the Dynamic/Animate Chart tool in Solar Fire, changed the step value to 1 year and stepped back till I saw Saturn join Uranus & Neptune with Jupiter in Gemini and Sun, Mercury, Venus conjunct in Aries. Getting everything in the right houses was then the next challenge. I changed the step value to 1 hour, then 1 minute, then 1 second until I got 23 Gem 46 rising.

If I'd tuned in a bit psychically I might have chosen my Mum's birthdate - 7 April.

Yes the dynamic chart feature in SF is great and I've used it to 'surprise' a number of people who give rough chart details. The ability to alter Latitude and Longitude in SF is also very useful to narrow down locations. Because most charts only show positions to the nearest minute of arc, it's never possible to get an exact location even if you know all the planetary positions and Ascendant but you can get reasonably close. Using SF, I'd probably have started with a fairly central large city such as Chicago or St Louis and then adjusted like you did till the houses looked right. That would still have left two or three days when she could have been born, so I don't think you were ever going to get to the right day by deduction. The psychic approach was probably the best at that stage

 

[dadsnook2000]

I have been absent for awhile

Hello, All. I have been absent for a couple of months due to a number of factors.
** I have been involved in getting my book, Personal Prediction, launched. At this moment I'm setting it up on Amazon with a "look inside the book" feature to show the first few dozen pages so that interested astrologers can see what it is all about.
** I had been on vacation in Maine with the wife, the first time she has spent a whole summer with me. That took away a lot of my astrological time.
** We are selling our house and our summer home, trying to "downsize" our space and maintenance efforts.
** And, I've received some highly serious medical news from the doctor, emphasizing the need to simplify the need for work/strength activities. I am 77 so that should not be seen as unusual, just an irksome thing to adjust to.

As for Pluto, I may not add much to the lengthy discussion at this point. I have seen many charts related to events in one's life where Pluto symbolism was highly evident. From my experience I can say the following:
** If Pluto is not involved in a tight aspect pattern in your natal chart then you will likely not be overly sensitive to Pluto transits or contacts.
** If Pluto is integrated directly in your chart you may experience its effects in either/both of two ways: 1) As being part of a wide cultural-social shift in your world or community, 2) As marking a major shift in your life --- an impactfull event or a serious trend.
** Pluto can play a scaled down day-to-day role in Return charts and Cyclic charts. By "cyclic" charts I mean the advance or progression of the charts angles and transits from a Solar, Lunar or Moon-to-Sun Return chart forward to a specific date. These Return and Cyclic charting techniques are what I am most focused on as a predictive tool.

I don't tend to dismiss Pluto as some astrologers do. I don't see it as a "doom" planet. Rather than seeing Pluto in extreme terms I tend to see it as an irrevocable force of change in whatever context it is involved in.

I'll try to check in more often. Dave