Tarot of the Sephirot and Black Magic ??

[Zephyros]

Then maybe it's time to discard popular tradition. The Golden Dawn didn't follow it, and it can't be a ruler for understanding every symbol. It can't go both ways. You ask whether certain symbols are representative of black magic, and when told that no, you say that popular tradition holds them to be so. I've gotten lost and forgotten the question...

 

[novenovembre]

Then maybe it's time to discard popular tradition. The Golden Dawn didn't follow it, and it can't be a ruler for understanding every symbol. It can't go both ways. You ask whether certain symbols are representative of black magic, and when told that no, you say that popular tradition holds them to be so. I've gotten lost and forgotten the question...

The popular tradition comes from somewhere deeper....it comes from religious or exoteric environments....the description of the Devil as a red creature with horns and feet like a ram wasn't created by the average person in the street....and the same goes for many other symbols, that have become part of popular iconography or tradition, but were not conjurede up by it. And I am sure I am not breaking the news to you.

 

[novenovembre]

The popular tradition comes from somewhere deeper....it comes from religious or exoteric environments....the description of the Devil as a red creature with horns and feet like a ram wasn't created by the average person in the street....and the same goes for many other symbols, that have become part of popular iconography or tradition, but were not conjurede up by it. And I am sure I am not breaking the news to you.

But of course, in case this is news to you, I will let you have the relevant literature for this as well.

 

[Zephyros]

I agree with you, of course. There are reasons why things are the way they are. However, people like Crowley, for example, took those same ideas and subverted them, making the normal rules not applicable. Things like the Great Whore of Abominations and Beast 666 don't mean the same thing today, in the specialized circles dealing in magic, as they did previously. The GD not only followed some established traditions, but also made up new ones. It is also important to separate fact from fiction.

For example, the Salem witch trials are a complete invention. Not that they didn't happen, but the root of the problem was a property dispute fed by paranoia, no magic was involved, despite mainstream traditions and the tourist trap Salem has become today. The most well-known depiction of the Baphomet is a lie, an accusation made against the Knights Templar. Earlier, the symbol of the goat appears in the bible, in which the animal was laden with the community's sins and left in the desert. Even in the book you mentioned, "Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie," says of the Baphoment that it represents the "sum total of the universe," bearing the words solve and coagula on its arms, representing the Great Work.

Point is, the occult was hidden for most of history because of the knowledge that popular views would misunderstand certain symbols. Normal rules of popular perception don't apply. The average person is perhaps the worst judge possible of what constitutes black magickal symbols. Pan has been mentioned previously in this thread; the popular view of the red, horned Devil is probably political propaganda.

This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade 'Know Thyself!' and taught Initiation. He is 'The Devil' of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection... He is therefore Life, and Love. But moreover his letter is ayin, the Eye, so that he is Light; and his Zodiacal image is Capricornus, that leaping goat whose attribute is Liberty.

The Lord of Matter is a way of shaming people, intimating that anything physical is an unholy blasphemy.

 

[novenovembre]

I agree with you, of course. There are reasons why things are the way they are. However, people like Crowley, for example, took those same ideas and subverted them, making the normal rules not applicable. Things like the Great Whore of Abominations and Beast 666 don't mean the same thing today, in the specialized circles dealing in magic, as they did previously. The GD not only followed some established traditions, but also made up new ones.
Point is, the occult was hidden for most of history because of the knowledge that popular views would misunderstand certain symbols. Normal rules of popular perception don't apply. The average person is perhaps the worst judge possible of what constitutes black magickal symbols. Pan has been mentioned previously in this thread; the popular view of the red, horned Devil is probably political propaganda.

I don't know about the Beast 666 meaning something different in specialized circles because I am not part of them....although it does still mean that to those many improvised, very dangerous satanic sects which still organize black masses with human sacrifices....but as you said about the swastika, when a symbol is laden with something so heavy over a long period of time, it is absolutely impossible to separate it completely from its original negative meaning, and the energy that goes with it....or are you saying that we can't redeem the swastica from its nazi connection, but we can redeem the Beast 666 from its connection with Satan ?

 

[novenovembre]

I went to Dan Staroff's facebook page and official website, as suggested by one of the posters....
I have to say, my friend and I had a good laugh, and we wish to apologize for mistaking him for a black magician....the guy is clearly not to be taken seriously, and there is probably no conscious ill-intention in his black symbology ....

But I do suggest, if you are looking for some Christmas gadgets such as mugs with Father Christmas drinking what looks like whiskey or vodka, to visit his site and shop there....there are definitely no black magic symbols there....and the smoke from Father Christmas' cigar spins upwards in what looks like an anti-clockwise direction to me, so it's OK....
So I feel I can safely agree that, if there is any black symbolism in his tarot, it is probably accidental.

 

[senescal]

Now I want this deck. Just found out it's out of print

 

[novenovembre]

Now I want this deck. Just found out it's out of print

Are you talking about the sephirot ? Of course you can easily find it on amazon....

 

[Zephyros]

I went to Dan Staroff's facebook page and official website, as suggested by one of the posters....
I have to say, my friend and I had a good laugh, and we wish to apologize for mistaking him for a black magician....the guy is clearly not to be taken seriously, and there is probably no conscious ill-intention in his black symbology ....

But I do suggest, if you are looking for some Christmas gadgets such as mugs with Father Christmas drinking what looks like whiskey or vodka, to visit his site and shop there....there are definitely no black magic symbols there....and the smoke from Father Christmas' cigar spins upwards in what looks like an anti-clockwise direction to me, so it's OK....
So I feel I can safely agree that, if there is any black symbolism in his tarot, it is probably accidental.

Just so I understand what just happened, you asked a question, got many answers from knowledgeable people, didn't believe them and decided it didn't matter since the deck's creator is a fool?

 

[novenovembre]

Just so I understand what just happened, you asked a question, got many answers from knowledgeable people, didn't believe them and decided it didn't matter since the deck's creator is a fool?

No, I still think the symbols and the images are black or sinister to say the least....but I now have a feeling that the guy might not even have realized that....which, to an extent, is irrelevant....and everything that was said here was very interesting anyway....well, almost everything....