Tarot and Numerology

[daphne]

Well, its a fairly old tradition that the patterns present in the cosmos relate to ones that unfold during our lives. 'Why we would do this' - is to examine and study, to gain insight and understanding of ourselves - The first hermetic axiom is 'know thyself'.

Why turn the natal chart back 28 deg ( I am not sure of the current exact amount) ?

Unless it is a sidereal chart (based on the actual positions of the stars- like all other culture's astrological calculations / charts ) it wont accurately show the celestial relationships. Basically the earth wobbles like a spinning top slowing down, this causes the position of the Sun (in relation to the back drop of stars) to move 1 degree every 72 (I think)* years 'backwards' through the zodiac. Since the western astrological tables (ephemeris) was calculated ... (around 300 AD ... sorry for all the approximations ... going off memory here) the zodiac has moved nearly 1 full sign from what it says in the ephemeris.


Tropical astrologers will come up with all sorts of reasons why and tell you I am wrong, or I dont understand , etc. ..... whatever <shrug> you can argue with me but its a bit much to argue with the rest of the world, history and NASA ( as the source of actual star / planet locations) though . Of course, if all the info is published in a book of tables that us smart westerners have been using for over 2000 years .... we cant have been wrong ... I am sure we can come up with a reason to explain how we are right and the Universe is wrong


* for LRichard ... 50.2 arc seconds per annum some nice equations in here for you ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession


Addit : ..... precession is what brings about concepts like 'The Age of Aquarius'.

Thank you for the explanation. If I understand correct what you said, astrology now use an outdated system to calculate birth charts, right?

I have no knowledge about the matter, but it sounds revolting that there is no info about this error and a wrong calculus is processed. It is the first time I read about this correction. Do you have some suggestion for further read, maybe some astrology books that promote the necessary corrections?

 

[Zephyros]

.I am still trying to figure out how , if granny is the age you mentioned , why her "birthday was altered 13 days to be brought 'inline' with the Gregorian calendar" ( @ post #55 ) ... was she Greek ?

It happens. My grandfather doesn't even know his own birthday, whatever official records say. He only knows he was born (in Turkey) on or around Tu Bishvat. We're talking about more than ninety years ago, and records were either not always well kept, or dates were counted by different holidays or other considerations.

 

[Richard]

It happens. My grandfather doesn't even know his own birthday, whatever official records say. He only knows he was born (in Turkey) on or around Tu Bishvat. We're talking about more than ninety years ago, and records were either not always well kept, or dates were counted by different holidays or other considerations.

My birth certificate doesn't give the time of birth, only that it was 19 April 1938 in a certain city in an eastern coastal state of the US. My uncle said it was early in the morning, before sunrise. It is impossible to pinpoint it. I'm not even sure of the exact location. I never bothered to ask my parents, and now they are dead. It doesn't bother me, except that it would be interesting to have an accurate birth chart.

(Thanks to ravenest for the info about the precession of the equinoxes per annum.)

 

[frejasphere]

I think if you were closer to the sun like that the only difference would be that the sun would melt the wax holding your wings together and you would fall to earth

But really ... the actual problem would be getting your birth location co-ordinates; you would have to match the time of birth ( had they changed their watches yet to the destination time or still on departure time ,,, or where they changing the time as the plane crossed time zones? Then match that with the flight plan (if the plane did stick to the flight plan ... who knows nowadays ? apparently they can totally 'loose' them ! ) and calculate the lat. and long. .... OI!

.I am still trying to figure out how , if granny is the age you mentioned , why her "birthday was altered 13 days to be brought 'inline' with the Gregorian calendar" ( @ post #55 ) ... was she Greek ?

First, thank you for the much needed laugh (Calvin & Hobbes) I am an avid fan - despite Calvin's (occasional, and naturally ill-informed) anti-girl sentiments (he luckily does have Hobbes to set him right)

My Grandmother was born under the Russian calendar (Latvia - 1906), the revolution led to that in 1918, Russia and the countries ruled by Russia, switched to the Gregorian calendar. So instead of being born at the end of March, her birth date was moved to the beginning of April ...

It happens. My grandfather doesn't even know his own birthday, whatever official records say. He only knows he was born (in Turkey) on or around Tu Bishvat. We're talking about more than ninety years ago, and records were either not always well kept, or dates were counted by different holidays or other considerations.

Despite not knowing the exact date, I hope your grandfather still makes sure to celebrate his birthday

My birth certificate doesn't give the time of birth, only that it was 19 April 1938 in a certain city in an eastern coastal state of the US. My uncle said it was early in the morning, before sunrise. It is impossible to pinpoint it. I'm not even sure of the exact location. I never bothered to ask my parents, and now they are dead. It doesn't bother me, except that it would be interesting to have an accurate birth chart.

(Thanks to ravenest for the info about the precession of the equinoxes per annum.)

While I could see the temptation to become a detective with a story such as yours... I do think that 'Before sunrise' does have a nice ring

 

[kwaw]

Thank you for the explanation. If I understand correct what you said, astrology now use an outdated system to calculate birth charts, right?

I have no knowledge about the matter, but it sounds revolting that there is no info about this error and a wrong calculus is processed. It is the first time I read about this correction. Do you have some suggestion for further read, maybe some astrology books that promote the necessary corrections?

It's not new nor outdated - the precession of the equinoxes was been known about by the ancients and any student of astrology is aware of it, it's basic astrology 101 stuff. Ptolomy wrote about it, and explained why tropical astrology (such as is prevalent in the west) is used instead of sidereal over 2000 years ago.

Sidereal astrology such is used for example in Indian astrology (which in itself was heavily influenced by Babylonian and Greek astrology), is as much an 'artificial' construct as its practioners claim tropical to be - actual 'constellations' (themselves an artificial construct) do not divide neatly into 30 degree segments of sky!

There are basically two schools, tropical and sidereal, and have been since centuries b.c. There are arguments both sides, but the argument that tropical astrologers were simply ignorant of the facts of precession is a false one.

 

[daphne]

It's not new nor outdated - the precession of the equinoxes was been known about by the ancients and any student of astrology is aware of it, it's basic astrology 101 stuff.

In the books I've read, I never came onto idea I should correct with 28 degree a birth chart. Maybe it is basic astrology, but it is not so often displayed and explained.

 

[kwaw]

In the books I've read, I never came onto idea I should correct with 28 degree a birth chart. Maybe it is basic astrology, but it is not so often displayed and explained.

There is no 'correction' in tropical astrology - the first point of Aries is always the vernal point (Spring Equinox) that marks the entry of the Sun into the sign (not constellation) of Aries. If you want to adjust a tropical horoscope to a sidereal one, then you add the variation (which increases at a rate of about 72" per annum, off the top of my head.) This may alter the sign/constellations of the planets, ascendant, MC etc - but the relationship between the planets (aspects), asc. mc, etc will remain the same. It's been a long time since I read beginner books, but the ones I started with (some 40 odd years ago) all explained the precession of the equinoxes - some turn of the (19th) century popular books (such as Sepharial) not only explained it but went into some detail both systems / schools - perhaps they dumb them down these days (when I say 'beginner', I am talking of something a little more advanced than say, Linda's Love Signs et al).

 

[daphne]

There is no 'correction' in tropical astrology - the first point of Aries is always the vernal point (Spring Equinox) that marks the entry of the Sun into the sign (not constellation) of Aries. If you want to adjust a tropical horoscope to a sidereal one, then you add the variation (which increases at a rate of about 72" per annum, off the top of my head.) This may alter the sign/constellations of the planets, ascendant, MC etc - but the relationship between the planets (aspects), asc. mc, etc will remain the same. It's been a long time since I read beginner books, but the ones I started with (some 40 odd years ago) all explained the precession of the equinoxes - perhaps they dumb them down these days.

In the books I read, there is no discussion about this difference (tropical / sidereal), and very little about how to make a chart (because a computer program will do it, in the end). The attention was given not very much on technical background, more on the signification part, like the characteristics and meaning of signs, planets, houses, aspects. Probably I am really at the beginner end of the astrological knowledge. Thank you for your answers.

 

[ravenest]

Thank you for the explanation. If I understand correct what you said, astrology now use an outdated system to calculate birth charts, right?

I have no knowledge about the matter, but it sounds revolting that there is no info about this error and a wrong calculus is processed. It is the first time I read about this correction. Do you have some suggestion for further read, maybe some astrology books that promote the necessary corrections?

Kwaw is mostly right in his responses above (but since you did ask me I will reply too ) ... the difference is in context and a few other things.

These sort of things are insignificant as tarot usually uses astrology on a very basic level ... it wont matter unless you want to get deep into a G.D. deck's (or GD related deck, like Thoth) astrology as they used a sidereal system (including constellations off the ecliptic, ie. aside from the common 12 'signs') ... you can paste a simplified modern astrology onto it like you some people paste a simplified 'modern kabbalah' ('numerology') on to it.

It isnt that " astrology now use(s) an outdated system to calculate birth charts", many aspects of the system relate to 'older' systems of astrology (like the concept of the Ascendant) - it is that it uses positional tables that are 'outdated' ... in relation to the actual positions (as I said) of the stars and planets AGAINST the backdrop of stars, as Kwaw pointed out it doesnt change the relationship between the sun and planets, but it changes the relationship to the backdrop of 'space' (I cant say 'backdrop of stars in tropical astrology as it doesnt use them) eg. my sun : moon are still separated by 30 degrees but instead of a tropical Cancer : Leo, it is sidereal Gemini : Cancer.

I have found heaps written about this ... even on AT ... in relation to tarot, mostly in the Thoth and GD forums. (I gave up discussing it in astro forum because it got too silly with proffesional astrologers telling me the signs never had a relation to the constellations ... even though they have the same names and a same order ! ? ) . It isnt really error and wrong technically, they are different systems BUT it seems wrong as most people are really surprised as they think astrology uses the stars and constellations and if they looked at the sky on their birthday they assume it would be set up the same as their natal chart. Some feel ripped off or that they have been given wrong information. All you have to do is use a sidereal system to calculate your time and position. If you go to a good astrology site their calculator should offer a sidereal option.

 

[ravenest]

First, thank you for the much needed laugh (Calvin & Hobbes) I am an avid fan - despite Calvin's (occasional, and naturally ill-informed) anti-girl sentiments (he luckily does have Hobbes to set him right)

I have an 'inner tiger' which helps me appreciate girls too

My Grandmother was born under the Russian calendar (Latvia - 1906), the revolution led to that in 1918, Russia and the countries ruled by Russia, switched to the Gregorian calendar. So instead of being born at the end of March, her birth date was moved to the beginning of April ...

Ah ... Latvia, that makes sense, the reason I asked about being Greek was, I think they were the last to convert their calendar (nationally) about 5 years after the date you mentioned.