Lovers vs 2 Cups

Zephyros

It might be worth mentioning that even within the "confines" of esoteric traditions, the subjective experience of an idea is still paramount. My own interpretation may have been abstract, such is my preference (and as such it was very properly ignored!), but anyone can take that and develop it. It is never just about spouting off attributions, but rather what they mean. The basic equation may be Gemini+Binah->Tiphareth+Zain+6, but there can be innumerable permutations of what the answer is. Different people operating under the same traditions can still come up with different answers.

That being said, I am the one who is obviously right while everyone else is wrong. Obviously.
 

Haley

I've changed my opinion on this issue after reading all of your replies and studying The Lovers (Rider Waite is not the best visual interpretation). I understand now that the Lovers are a more exalted and commited love between a man and woman than the 2 cups.

Thanks all for a very stimulating and thought provoking discussion.
 

Richard

......That being said, I am the one who is obviously right while everyone else is wrong. Obviously.
In an irrational context, facts are irrelevant. It is idiotic to think otherwise. Obviously.
 

ravenest

It might be worth mentioning that even within the "confines" of esoteric traditions, the subjective experience of an idea is still paramount.

Not sure what that means , as on the surface I see the opposite. In all the esoteric traditions I have encountered , subjective experience is held up against the groups developed or adopted paradigms as a template; from everything to pathworkings through to spirit evocation and astral travel, to examine whether the subjective experienece has magical validity and is not just a projection from an individual. I have never been involved, nor can think of an esoteric tradition with a group where the subjective experience of an idea is a paramount - I am sure there is a modern New Age form of that , but where is it in esoteric traditions ?


My own interpretation may have been abstract, such is my preference (and as such it was very properly ignored!), but anyone can take that and develop it. It is never just about spouting off attributions, but rather what they mean. The basic equation may be Gemini+Binah->Tiphareth+Zain+6, but there can be innumerable permutations of what the answer is. Different people operating under the same traditions can still come up with different answers.
.

And they still have to be able to justify them. (Unless its a cult or something and the power of the controlling individual has surpassed the followers power to discern).

I'd say, if they are in the same tradition, to remain in that tradition they could come up with variant answers, but wouldn't a whole lot of different answers within a tradition (and by that I am assuming you include interpretations) make ... not a tradition?

Even an 'esoteric tradition' like Crowley's and his tarot, which is VERY eclectic in its tradition, links the different traditions (or answers) through fields of related correspondences or 'resonances' ( the same answers in different forms ... not different answers).

Its the difference between, say, if a person says "I am going to make an offering to Shiva for good luck" and a second person says "No, Ganesha is the more appropriate one to give luck." The first says ... "No I believe, for me, it is Shiva" ... well, no one can deny their right to think what they want, but within that tradition ... they are wrong. Even if they are right for themselves.

If one with a different answer, is able to validate its process and worth sufficiently, the tradition incorporates changes or a new one splits off or starts.
 

Zephyros

I suppose I didn't express myself well. The point I was trying to make was that two people using the same tools to get at an idea, in this instance a card, will arrive at answers that are perhaps in the same ballpark, but subtly different. I think it depends on the way each person works out the ideas for themselves, how much weight they attribute to each factor and their point of view, and there can be endless variations within that. For example, both cards share an angle of "two-ness" but it's at once the same and different, because here we have airy twoness while there we have watery twoness. There's the twoness of Chochma while Binah, although it is three, also has an element of duality. But which Binah are we talking about, the fertile or the dark, and we can also wax on about the facets' similarities and differences. Is the Cups card "more" or "less" two than the other, becomes it comes before? And so on, it never really ends.

I agree that the basic purpose of these divisions, sub-divisions and technical terms is an attempt to arrive to an idea that is as pure and as specific as possible. The actual assimilation of that idea, however, will be different in each individual, especially when you're talking about a Tarot card that is, as a whole, an incredibly multi-faceted symbol.

If I wanted, for example, to become pregnant, I could justify (well, theoretically) offering a sacrifice to Chochma, since that's the "two" sephira, but I could also justify a sacrifice to Binah or Hod. All those ideas are so interconnected that unless you do arrive at the pure idea, it will always be colored, to an extent.
 

ravenest

:)

If I wanted, for example, to become pregnant, I could justify (well, theoretically) offering a sacrifice to Chochma, since that's the "two" sephira, but I could also justify a sacrifice to Binah or Hod. All those ideas are so interconnected that unless you do arrive at the pure idea, it will always be colored, to an extent.

I suppose then , if pregnancy IS the result of any sexual dalliance on your part, it just proves the point that: "This attraction or chemistry Does not indicate copulating like bunnies or having sex at all, but gives us the desire, to procreate, as God intended for us, as humans, to do." ;)
 

Richard

:)



I suppose then , if pregnancy IS the result of any sexual dalliance on your part, it just proves the point that: "This attraction or chemistry Does not indicate copulating like bunnies or having sex at all, but gives us the desire, to procreate, as God intended for us, as humans, to do." ;)
Indeed, that is irrefutable proof that sex is designed for procreation, not for fun. :rolleyes: QueenPen is right! I apologize for ever having thought otherwise, but it's too late. I'm going to hell for sure.
 

nisaba

True. Ok! I understand what you are stating. So, could it be the attraction before the sex? The decision that u might have sex or the choice of you wouldn't mind having sex, if a love question?

That sounds like a fairly trivial decision, and one more fitted for the hormonal rush of the Two Cups than something deeper like the Lovers Card.

I think we do a disservice saying that the Lovers card is about decisions. After all, we need to make a decision about whether to heave peas or broccoli with dinner, but that's hardly important, whereas the Lovers card indicates decisions or more properly choices to be made which are life-changing. Do you lean in for that kiss and start a new relationship, or do you pretend that that moment never happened. Do you pack your bags and move in with them irrevocably changing your future, or do you maintain separate houses and your independence should things go wrong? Do you really, really, really want to dump your old partner, no longer exciting but certainly loving, for that new charismatic person who you slept with during your lunch-break, or not?
 

QueenPen

That sounds like a fairly trivial decision, and one more fitted for the hormonal rush of the Two Cups than something deeper like the Lovers Card.



I think we do a disservice saying that the Lovers card is about decisions. After all, we need to make a decision about whether to heave peas or broccoli with dinner, but that's hardly important, whereas the Lovers card indicates decisions or more properly choices to be made which are life-changing. Do you lean in for that kiss and start a new relationship, or do you pretend that that moment never happened. Do you pack your bags and move in with them irrevocably changing your future, or do you maintain separate houses and your independence should things go wrong? Do you really, really, really want to dump your old partner, no longer exciting but certainly loving, for that new charismatic person who you slept with during your lunch-break, or not?


You know, I agree. I keep trying to mentally make myself think of lovers as a decision, but it doesn't work for me. If you have read my other posts in this thread, it's obvious I have a very strong attachment to the Lovers card. ;) thanks!