Difficult subject...

[Zephyros]

Wrong. Whiskey was first made by someone who knew the process of fermentation very well and eventually built upon it. It is impossible to make good whiskey otherwise. However, there are many brands of whiskey out there that are merely flavored alcohol colored with caramel and then presented as bottom shelf whiskey. The customers of such brands are in many ways the same kinds of people seeking spirituality in twice-removed cultural decks, addicts looking for a quick fix. The argument is not whether knowledge and wisdom cannot be added to or built upon, but how and why. A deck that bears the wisdom of the culture it purports to represent in a simple, at times derogatory way is exactly like fake whiskey, a fraud, a counterfeit. A person who drinks fake whiskey will probably dislike the genuine article once they taste it, because the counterfeit has nothing to do with it.

Why is it that time and again you misconstrue others' arguments? NO ONE, and I repeat, NO ONE has said that cultures cannot mix or be built upon. However many times you repeat that argument still will not make it true. The issue is not whether influences can be borrowed but HOW.

 

[ravenest]

Totally derailing here... but why the hell would you mix scotch with coke?

Because the essence , development and devotion to making of real scotch and the resultant taste and effects have never been appreciated.

Maybe they always had it that way, and never experienced the real thing.

Scotch and coke in a can anyone ?

 

[ravenest]

Whiskey was made because somebody wanted something different than what was on offer at the time from The original traditional brewing & fermenting culture.

Then following the original idea and coming up with something different, the process was altered to suit the palates of another Doctor feel good ... culture theft.

Now we have the coke peddlers peddling whiskey ... new age whoopie.. Tarot + culture.

Best pour it all down the drain and go back to the original culture and brew only the original ... in the traditional manner...

OR...

Each to their own...try this, try that ...it's all much better because of your trying...

You are doing it again; overreacting and trying to put a negative slant on it.

No one is saying not to do it, no one is saying destroy the decks or put them down the drain.

But you keep suggesting that - it is coming from you trying to twist what is being said here.

Its about appropriate usages and being polite and respectful in regard to what others ask about how their own culture is portrayed.

Its become pretty clear that you dont see the need to give that respect ... nor give the same respect to their leaders as they do.

If it wasnt for great indigenous leaders, we would not have lasting great ideas of value , presented from those leaders as representatives of their own cultures ..... like the Dalai Lama ... or Ghandi ... or Martin Luther King.

 

[Chrystella]

Syncretism and cultural appropriation are not the same thing. Syncretism allows for an inclusive approach; cultural appropriation does not.

For instance, Lucumi (Cuba) and Voudou (Haiti) are examples of syncretic religions - the merger of two seemingly contradictory sets of beliefs, Roman Catholicism and African religions, to create a distinct new system born out of innovation during colonisation, which then forms a part of cultural creolisation. You can view the tarot, as a whole, in a similar way.

Cultural appropriation is the taking of cultural elements from a minority culture by the dominant culture. Again, the power balance is important. This is not cultural exchange or cultural diffusion. Cultural appropriation is rarely altruistic or beneficial to those whose cultures are taken from. It's theft and theft is not generally considered acceptable.

Cultural appropriation is a white hipster wearing a feather headdress. Cultural appropriation is when people are injured and die in sweat lodge ceremonies performed by non-Natives who haven't a clue as to what they're doing. Cultural appropriation is when we want people's cultures without wanting its people.

 

[ravenest]

Good points RF !

Sometimes I wonder why some people want to appropriate some pop elements of another culture and start 'teaching' it, when in reality, they know little about it.

All I can come up with is they dont understand their own culture in depth, so they dont teach aspects of that, a mix of ego and power striving and the usual fact that there is no one around to contradict them with a valuable and relevant viewpoint (so, let's make all views valid in an attempt to eliminate any criticism )

I like your example, also it is a real thing that does happen.

A similar dynamic is present in a recent trend of 'western hipsters' taking Ayahuasca ... some bad stories there.

( I was going to link a piece here ... but its probably more appropriate to PM it to you ? )

 

[Zephyros]

This has been discussed in this thread previously, that Western culture isn't "glamorous" enough, and people look for the "new thing." Now, I myself see the Golden Dawn working of the Tarot as the best there is, but many people do not share my opinion. However, what many people do not know, or do not care to find out, is that the Western Mystery Tradition is incredibly rich, and there are some Western occultists I would put on par with any Eastern mystics and other initiated individuals. They would perhaps occupy an even higher place of honor.

But... they are derided and ridiculed in the West for it is far easier to quote the Dalai Lama's wisdom (even though his quotes may or may not have anything to do with his actual doctrines) rather than study Mathers or Crowley. The WMT is seen as perhaps too near, not interesting enough, not "out there." This does it an injustice, as there is something in it for everyone. Looking for advanced, mind-bending meditation techniques? You don't need so-called Tibetan shamans for that, all you need is right here. Looking for magic powers? Yogis won't give you what you need, because it is your own tradition that is especially suited to you and your upbringing. Looking for enlightenment? Don't go Osho or Chopra, read a book about Kabbalah.

Point is, that the foreign is always seen as better or more interesting when in fact it might be detrimental to deal with things that are focused on different people who have different states of mind, different lifestyles and goals. For example, it isn't enough just to say "Karma" and say you're Buddhist, when Buddhism itself, its goals and mindset is inseparable from the caste system, something Westerners cannot/don't need to understand.

 

[ravenest]

Actually, (aside from the Buddhist reference ... a Vedic one might work better here) the caste system is a good example of misappropriating a system to suit a culture.

The original concept of 'Varnas' (occupations / guilds / systems of initiation) came from Aryan culture and the pre-Zoroastrian religion. It (the original idea of Vara - or Vana in Hindu tradition - ' a farmed enclosure' ) translated into Zoroastrianism in its more original form.

King Jamshid is said to have developed it. He instituted the four main professional guilds of priests and learned (athravan), nobles and warriors (rathestaran), farmers (vasteryosan), and artisans (hutokhshan), with members of each profession working in freedom and dignity. Farmers had their own land free from dispute. King Jamshid also instituted the tradition of the wearing the sacred thread or belt as an mark that the wearer had been initiated into the guilds. It was equally open to men and women and not restricted by birth.

King Jamshid's realm was known for its fairness in government and opportunities - a first of its kind back then. This is reflected in the 'Vedic' 'old gods' ; the Asuras, who were beneficial and just (in the earliest Vedas ) .

Later, after the rise of the warlike and oppressive Indra (and after the split into proto-Iranians and Vedic 'Indians' and the crossing of them into India from the Arian homeland; Aria, then Bactria , now Afghanistan / Tajikistan) the system became set by birth, they had the priests and learned (brahman), nobles and warriors (khshtriya), merchants and farmers (vaishyas), labourers and artisans (sudra). Each varna has its own dharma or system and rules (also called laws) which included an initiation ceremony called the upanayana (meaning bringing within).

Hinduism developed the professional guilds into a caste system, a development that violated principles that Zarathushtra would promote. The initiation ceremony in Hinduism is now limited to men of the first three castes, while the initiation ceremony in Zoroastrianism is available to all women and men.

http://i.dawn.com/2012/01/1033.jpg

In Zoroastrianism, the initiation ceremony is an initiation into the faith and a coming-of-age ceremony for all Zoroastrians - rather than an initiation into a guild or caste for men only.

The system was clearly part of a liberal culture that allowed flexibility and development and offered a previously unheard of liberality. That part of the culture was taken and used in a more oppressive regime to suit the ends of those that sort personal power and more control of the populace.

In the Rig Veda, the devas (Hindu gods) preside over natural phenomena and the exercise of power and might while the asuras (Zoroastrian 'gods') preside over the establishment of a moral and social order.

In the Rig Veda , when Varuna ( an asura) declares, "I, Varuna, am the king; first for me were appointed the dignities of asura, the Lord. I let the dripping waters rise up, and through rta I uphold the sky."

Indra replies, "Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming... . No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma*, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear."

* Soma although 'lost' to the migrated 'Indians' can still be purchased as a draught in Tajikistan markets , it is made form a herbal ephedera - ie. 'speed'

Indra is guardian of victory in battle earning the title sahasra-mushka, 'the one with a thousand testicles' ( - talk about a testosterone overloaded, violent, speed freak ! )

~ In case the point is missed, the cultural system (Vana) was developed to help a culture be free and advanced, the system was misappropriated for oppression and control.

- another type of cultural misappropriation.

 

[re-pete-a]

Wrong. Whiskey was first made by someone who knew the process of fermentation very well and eventually built upon it. It is impossible to make good whiskey otherwise. However, there are many brands of whiskey out there that are merely flavored alcohol colored with caramel and then presented as bottom shelf whiskey. The customers of such brands are in many ways the same kinds of people seeking spirituality in twice-removed cultural decks, addicts looking for a quick fix. The argument is not whether knowledge and wisdom cannot be added to or built upon, but how and why. A deck that bears the wisdom of the culture it purports to represent in a simple, at times derogatory way is exactly like fake whiskey, a fraud, a counterfeit. A person who drinks fake whiskey will probably dislike the genuine article once they taste it, because the counterfeit has nothing to do with it.

Why is it that time and again you misconstrue others' arguments? NO ONE, and I repeat, NO ONE has said that cultures cannot mix or be built upon. However many times you repeat that argument still will not make it true. The issue is not whether influences can be borrowed but HOW.

Wrong...?

Quote:
"I mean if you distill beer, you get whiskey... if you distill wine, you get cognac/brandy... if you distill fermented molasses, you get rum... if you distill fermented agave, you get tequila... if you distill apple-cider, you get calvados (if you happen to live in Calvados, France)... if you distill fermented horse-milk (kumiss), you'll probably regret it..."

End Quote...


The "HOW" is borrowed... The WHY is also a fermenting process...

Following is borrowing, from a Trail Blazer... it's second hand.

Anybody can adopt or borrow ...

First are the Adventurers, the Trail blazers...then the map makers(cultures)..Then the story tellers ...then the idle curious...followed by the experts in following...

Followers rarely adventure into new unknown territory... It's a different mindset...

We all bleed red in other words we are all the same...Biologically speaking...

So what makes everyone different...?

It's our beliefs...what we believe ... You believe in the idea that it's theft without having respect for it's origins...

I believe that even the people within those cultures are the same as the people outside of them...motivated by the same forces... gains...regardless of what sort.

I also believe that you are following your chosen path through this Tarot world for your own advantages... Same as I ...

Crowley is not a good life example of honouring the culture... He did no different than any that have sidestepped a culture... He used it to gain, for himself, a place in a different world...He stole it ...

 

[Chrystella]

I believe that even the people within those cultures are the same as the people outside of them...motivated by the same forces... gains...regardless of what sort.

I suppose that a person who is motivated by "gains" might believe everyone else is too. I wonder if such a person could even conceive, much less accept, that not everyone is so Machiavellian.

 

[Zephyros]

~ In case the point is missed, the cultural system (Vana) was developed to help a culture be free and advanced, the system was misappropriated for oppression and control.

- another type of cultural misappropriation.

I guess I put my foot in my mouth, thank you for correcting me (if I understood you correctly and that's what you did). What I was referring to was religion as a means to escape the mindset that if you're born a butcher's son you're tainted for life. A Westerner would have difficulty assimilating that, they have perhaps different challenges.

I guess I'm doing exactly what I'm preaching against.