using the thoth vs. knowing it

Barleywine

~laughing~ that is just naughty...tut tut

Eta... Though it does quite nicely bring all the elements together in a way- spiritual and physical - after all we are fortunate here (Malkuth) to be able to enjoy this. (Talking more generally, not specifically strip poker :joke: )

Haha! Tut me no tuts! What would you wager that, if Crowley had lived into the wide-open '70s and had had the notion, we'd see "Thoth Strip Poker" right there on the shelf next to "Tarotbear's Phallomancy Oracle!" It could even have a 3D game board - you know, like the "Tree of Life in Three Dimensions" - that would show which realm you would have to "perform" in, the "Ethical," the "Mental" or the "Physical" (I'd leave the "Astral" for the "Adult" edition since it leaves WAY too much to the imagination). The winner - the one with the most scruples, sanity or clothing left - would get the Grand Prize, his or her very own "Spirit Decoder Ring!" I'm drooling at the fun to be had . . . uh oh, now I've given some entrepreneur a REALLY BAD idea, and I can't even copyright it. Stuart, hold on tight to that license!

Sobering up (and I don't even drink in the morning :)), I apologize for the levity, but this thread was starting to feel like "cement overshoes" (no offense meant to the learned contributors, just sayin' . . .).
 

smw

Haha! Tut me no tuts! What would you wager that, if Crowley had lived into the wide-open '70s and had had the notion, we'd see "Thoth Strip Poker" right there on the shelf next to "Tarotbear's Phallomancy Oracle!" It could even have a 3D game board - you know, like the "Tree of Life in Three Dimensions" - that would show which realm you would have to "perform" in, the "Ethical," the "Mental" or the "Physical" (I'd leave the "Astral" for the "Adult" edition since it leaves WAY too much to the imagination). The winner - the one with the most scruples, sanity or clothing left - would get the Grand Prize, his or her very own "Spirit Decoder Ring!" I'm drooling at the fun to be had . . . uh oh, now I've given some entrepreneur a REALLY BAD idea, and I can't even copyright it. Stuart, hold on tight to that license!

haha...don't you mean the winner with the "least" scruples should win the spirit Decoder Ring ahhh...drool...my precious....
 

Richard

.......Sobering up (and I don't even drink in the morning :)), I apologize for the levity, but this thread was starting to feel like "cement overshoes" (no offense meant to the learned contributors, just sayin' . . .).
I apologize for my lack of levity. This thread has provided an irresistible opportunity to indulge my proclivity to indirectly attack those who enjoy demeaning anything that hints at the esoteric, which sometimes takes all the pleasure out of posting in the AT forums. Just reading Tarot cards is creepy enough in itself without criticizing those who exhibit a different version of creepiness. :livelong:
 

Zephyros

I think it is a shame people miss out on such good things, due to misunderstanding. The process I outlined in my post might seem like dry math, and it is, but it is the math of ideas, and can lead you to such beautiful places in your head and in your spirit. Discussions here in the Thoth forum might sound like code at times, very dry and intellectual, but they're actually about love and passion and spirit and basically life itself. The "code" is there simply to make sure everybody understands each other, since we are talking about emotions and experiences not easily expressed any other way. Attribution plus placement plus sign plus letter may sound dry, but it is very exciting because it forces you to bend your mind and spiritual senses to try to work out the answer to what do you get when you combine love with death with motion with perfection with, I don't know, whatever. And that process is just as intuitive and beautiful as anything. It makes you grow as a person, trying to arrive at the pure idea.

Plus there is the misconception that the images are not looked at. Nothing can be further from the truth. In the Thoth especially the images are so exactly engineered to convey the experience of the attributions, that the two go hand in hand. You not only know that, say, Mars is present on a card, but you feel it. Even if in a subtle way, it will be there, and will aid in your appreciation of the abstract energy depicted in the card.

Lastly, studying the structure helps make connections between the cards in ways that truly are practical in a reading. The three cards crossing the Abyss (Hierophant, Priestess and Chariot) are all connected astrologically, which not only leads to some mindblowing conclusions about each card's meaning, but also can hint to connections if they or any of the Minors or Courts associated with them come up. I have found that the amazing interconnectivity in the system has shown great insights in readings that looking at the images only would never have uncovered. It gives you a bigger vision, a bird's eye view since it can help you map out causes and effects of a situation. In addition, since every minor is two Majors, the reading itself becomes much bigger, and you have those added connections you can make. What does it mean if a planet or sign or letter repeat themselves? Do any Majors repeat themselves through attribution? These two cards here are next to each other on the Tree, is there significance? There really is no limit to how much practical use can be made of the structure. These two Courts share a sign, with it being more dominant it one of them, what do these two people have in common?

This is, of course, because the system is, with the exception of a few issues, so incredibly logical. :livelong:
 

Laura Borealis

I for one read it, and didn't find it overly mathematical. It was a helpful summary for me. :livelong:
 

Le Fanu

This is just to say thank you to closrapexa for responding with such analytical depth in his post. I have nothing to say except - er, yes - and that I have read it and find it very helpful. The energy you show for passing on what you know is very admirable. However, I do sometimes think I have too many blind spots in my knowledge of these things. I actually find the whole Tree of Life / Sephiroth subject easier to internalise than astrology.

There is a growing sense for me that the complexities of the Thoth mean that I reach for it less and less nowadays as I know I shall never do it justice. That's a shame as I used to love it very much. I almost feel - perhaps it is a sort of crisis - that I feel I cannot absorb much more. I must have limited concentration, perhaps have reached my limit - and if I do not memorise things parrot fashion, they don't stay in my brain much beyond a few weeks because the rest of life takes over. It's curious this thing of the Thoth as it is a deck which requires incessant, constant learning - which of course can only be a good thing - but I have so many other issues pressing in on all sides, I do now question how far I can go with it. I sometimes think that if only I could be unemployed for a few years just to study the things I want to study. Because the energy that is left over after work is very limited and this impacts on things like this (sorry, just thinking out loud).

Before I leave, I'd like to ask a very dumb question - you know when people say "oh it's GD", I'd like to know if there is a summary anywhere of what "is" GD. I see some books were mentioned above. But there must be a sort of checklist of what is / isn't GD? Or is that a really dumb request? The term is bandied around so much; the Hermetic isn't Thothy, it's GD... That would at least be a starting point for how the original post opens..
 

Barleywine

The process I outlined in my post might seem like dry math, and it is, but it is the math of ideas, and can lead you to such beautiful places in your head and in your spirit.

This reference to dryness surprised me a little. I've always encountered these ideas as potent abstractions for the "living architecture of the Universe," not dry ideas at all but "lively" ones - charged. If ever there was a place I was sorely tempted to use the overwrought $10 word puissant, it would be here! I'm not trying to be facetious, this has always been my slightly whimsical - but entirely heartfelt - take on the subject. The Tree of Life and all its myriad correspondences strike me as the ideal inspriration for the "hermetic" mind. Now the Zohar (at least in the translations I've seen), that's DRY, academic stuff. I doubt I could ever infuse that with enough daylight to make it sensible for my purposes.
 

Barleywine

Before I leave, I'd like to ask a very dumb question - you know when people say "oh it's GD", I'd like to know if there is a summary anywhere of what "is" GD. I see some books were mentioned above. But there must be a sort of checklist of what is / isn't GD? Or is that a really dumb request? The term is bandied around so much; the Hermetic isn't Thothy, it's GD... That would at least be a starting point for how the original post opens..

I'll answer in advance of closrapexa, who will give you a much more well-reasoned answer. Back around 1980, Israel Regardie tried to capture every scrap of the Golden Dawn material in his Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic, slightly filtered through his own active engagement with the latter-day Order. A lot of it is just the GD papers themselves. No correspondence or other enlightening ephemera. He aslso added some commentary. This is the closest I've seen to anything like a complete "GD" checklist.
 

Barleywine

Just reading Tarot cards is creepy enough in itself without criticizing those who exhibit a different version of creepiness. :livelong:

You know, it's not so much the reading of them that's creepy; that could just be seen as a carnival (pardon me, psychic fair) pastime or an entertaining party trick. What's a bit creepy is how often they speak the truth, eloquently and with full disclosure, in situations where it matters.
 

Zephyros

Before I leave, I'd like to ask a very dumb question - you know when people say "oh it's GD", I'd like to know if there is a summary anywhere of what "is" GD. I see some books were mentioned above. But there must be a sort of checklist of what is / isn't GD? Or is that a really dumb request? The term is bandied around so much; the Hermetic isn't Thothy, it's GD... That would at least be a starting point for how the original post opens..

I suppose there are different definitions. When I say GD I mean that it adheres to Book T in terms of symbolism and structure. The whole "hand grasping" the requisite number of suit indicators is GD, the white flower or heart on the 3S, Perseus and Andromeda on the Lovers. It means that Strength is at VIII, Justice at eleven, Emperor at Heh and Star at Tzaddi.

But on a more basic level, the GD invented modern Tarot. The Waite and Crowley decks are both second-generation ones that took its base and modified and embellished it. Although the Hermetic has a Sun attributed to the Thelemic Heru-ra-ha (Horus), it appears to be a close enough candldate for a "pure" GD deck.