using the thoth vs. knowing it

[Owl Tarot]

Feeling like I should clarify - when I talk about using the Thoth as a spiritual tool rather than an every day divination tool its not because its a more "serious" deck. Using the metaphor of language, I would say that it is "written in a language" that engages me on a spiritual level. For example, when investigating the heirophant: I am more apt when working with the Thoth deck to explore the mysteries of the heirophant as it relates to my HGA and the new aeon, rather than to read it as the passing down of knowledge through traditional avenues, which for me would be the more direct divination interpretation. I'm more likely to take into account the qabbalistic meaning of the card and its placement on the tree of life and use it to explore my current spiritual tasks using that framework. Of course that has a bearing on, say, career path... But I'm reaching for the deck in the same context that I would if I was meditating or going into trance space or performing a ritual. I do tend to apply tarot to my life in this framework in general, rather than using it in a divinatory sense (aside from my current nerdy obsession with hedgewitchery). I do read in a divinatory fashion for other people and I do make a distinction between the two because not everyone is coming to me for spiritual consultation. I don't personally align with esotericism myself, which is why I studied the Thoth for a while and then moved away from it... I think its fascinating in its own right and I certainly am not belittling it in any way.

I agree that Thoth is a powerful tool for those who love it and I do agree it is great for Spiritual use. My point previously (if you clarified in response to my previous post) was aiming at a mistake (in my opinion) that many Thoth readers do (not you, it was a more generic statement). They personally judge what is personally important for them, use Thoth to read about what is important according to them and disregard as of minor importance what they deem as such. Of course, it is a different thing if you enjoy working with more then one decks and you use them according to your or your querent's will. But, in my experience, an issue which may sound simple or foolish might really have a deep impact upon an individual, and this is why I don't like to "play God" on such matters. I only judge the importance of the readings I do for myself as a part of my work.

About the subject of the reading, in my experience every single card comes through perfectly in any type of question as long as one believes that it will do so. For me, the way to actually utilize Thoth for everything (according to the axiom "As above, so below") is to work without lust of result, as Crowley instructed for every Magickal operation to be performed (I do think all readings are such), and a really vital tool is -in my opinion- the "heart of the cards" (Yu-Gi-Oh reference). Thoth, or any other deck, will aid the seeker depending on his/her ability to use it I think. The better it is, the more questions he/she will be able to answer. So, as you yourself said, "But I'm reaching for the deck in the same context that I would if I was meditating or going into trance space or performing a ritual". Your viewpoint of choice affects the result, and since you have already chosen what you want to assimilate from the deck (or you reach for it), this is what the deck will reveal to you, just like it someone who uses it purely for Divination might not see something of a Spiritual nature within a reading.

Of course, I do think Thoth is really great to use for personal work and Spiritual matters, but I don't think it "ends" there and that's it's limit, just like I don't think it can only be used for Divination. Uniting both aspects is what I think Thoth does really well, as long as it has a "medium" (a.k.a. reader) able to transend personal preferences and that leads to a better personal understanding of it. The essense of my words is pretty well described by Crowley:

The position of the student of the Tarot is very similar. In this essay, and in these designs, is given an analysis of the general character of each card; but he cannot reach any true appreciation of them without observing their behaviour over a long period; he can only come to an understanding of the Tarot through experience. It will not be sufficient for him to intensify his studies of the cards as objective things; he must use them; he must live with them. They, too, must live with him. A card is not isolated from its fellows. The reactions of the cards, their interplay with each other, must be built into the very life of the student.

Then how is he to use them? How is he to blend their life with his? The ideal way is that of contemplation. But this involves initiation of such high degree that it is impossible to describe the method in this place. Nor is it either attractive or suitable to most people. The practical every-day commonplace way is divination.

 

[Zephyros]

I guess it depends on your definition of spiritual. Not everything brings you to spiritual ecstasy, but I think that everything is spiritual, in a way. The Tree of Life is so versatile you could superimpose the process of making a sandwich on it.

Remember all ye that existence is pure joy

or rather

But ecstasy be thine and joy of earth: ever To me! To me!

 

[Richard]

I also think that the Thoth concept is more centered on spirituality than divination, the latter topic being relegated to an appendix in the BoT. And of course, that which distinguishes Thoth from a Golden Dawn deck is the spirituality of Thelema. I.e., the Thoth owes its conception to Liber AL vel Legis, and fortunately Frieda Harris was able to express that conception in water colour paintings. To limit Thoth to intuitive readings (without the esoteric 'baggage') is perfectly valid, but it is rather like using a Ferrari for Pizza delivery.

 

[Owl Tarot]

I guess it depends on your definition of spiritual. Not everything brings you to spiritual ecstasy, but I think that everything is spiritual, in a way. The Tree of Life is so versatile you could superimpose the process of making a sandwich on it.



or rather

I think this is a pretty good way of summing up what I said previously in a more "compact" form, since I was aiming at that unity but using a more analytical process. Crowley was pretty clear about it as well. This is -for me- one of the most fundamental teachings of Kabbalah and Thelema and is almost everywhere apparent in the deck.

 

[fractalgranny]

I also think that the Thoth concept is more centered on spirituality than divination, the latter topic being relegated to an appendix in the BoT. And of course, that which distinguishes Thoth from a Golden Dawn deck is the spirituality of Thelema. I.e., the Thoth owes its conception to Liber AL vel Legis, and fortunately Frieda Harris was able to express that conception in water colour paintings. To limit Thoth to intuitive readings (without the esoteric 'baggage') is perfectly valid, but it is rather like using a Ferrari for Pizza delivery.

these metaphors are fascinating. i had to laugh at the latter one - one of my favourite drinks is hot chocolate with expensive tequila, which makes a lot of people shudder.

this whole discussion reminds me of discussions about art. example: six years ago i visited a very good friend of mine in hawaii, who hastened to take me to a gallery that had a few paintings she absolutely adored. having spent my whole life around art, my immediate (private) reaction was a shudder - to my mind, it was cheap, decorative crap. at the same time, it was clear to me how important this painting was to my dear friend, who felt inspired to paint herself (to produce works that in my opinion were far superior). i didn't want to disrespect something that made such an impression on my friend.

my friend didn't know thing one about art, loved that crap, and produced something of true depth. the painter of the art she loved so much clearly knew how to wield a paint brush and how to elicit people's emotions. in the end, we may all be better off. my friend, for her deep experience both as a painter and an art appreciator; the painter for having his art appreciated and sold at an expensive tourist gallery; and i, who have gotten profound learning from this experience. in the grand scheme of things, it is good that all these experiences are different, and that they can coexist.

in the same vein, there are probably many ways to experience and play and work with the thoth (thoth poker, anyone?), and as long as ye harm none, it's all good. insofar as thoth is a ferrari, i enjoy the knowledge that i can take it to deliver a pizza and KNOW it's a ferrari

now to explore wang's golden dawn, which just arrived.

 

[Richard]

A good resource for the universal applicability of the ToL is Kabbala: Tradition of hidden knowledge by Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi.

 

[Richard]

these metaphors are fascinating. i had to laugh at the latter one - one of my favourite drinks is hot chocolate with expensive tequila, which makes a lot of people shudder.......

That sounds yummy! I'll try it next time I can afford a bottle of good Tequila. Those who shudder at the concept may not know that the difference between quality Tequila and the cheap stuff is profound, analogous to the difference between Hello Kitty and Thoth.

 

[Le Fanu]

If you have a basic understanding of the Tree of Life you've already done half the work, and can extrapolate almost all the deck's inner workings.

Is that really true? I was very surprised by this. Do you really believe that or did you type it without thinking? It doesn't seem to me the case at all. I don't find the Tree of Life difficult at all to internalise along with the Atús and small card connections for the Thoth but I really don't feel that this would be even remotely halfway to truly understanding the Thoth. There is simply so much else. Funny, the older I get, the more I read, the more I wonder what I am doing wrong as I quietly accept that there is so much that I cannot understand here. And that gulf leaks into readings - the sense that it might not be the best deck to read with because you will always, always fall short because it is greater than you are. Whereas I don't feel that the Hanson Roberts is greater than me at all so it means that it feels more malleable as a tool. The last thing I find the Thoth is malleable and adaptable to styles of reading - but do please remember, I speak as one who loves it but would always feel in a reading that I'm not doing it justice at all and that there are answers I'm not going to divine even though they're staring me in the face. Just my impressions. But you just sort of plod on and be inferior.

 

[Barleywine]

in the same vein, there are probably many ways to experience and play and work with the thoth (thoth poker, anyone?).

Now look what ye done, got me thinking "Thoth strip poker" in three dimensions: bare your soul, bare your thoughts or . . .

 

[fractalgranny]

The last thing I find the Thoth is malleable and adaptable to styles of reading - but do please remember, I speak as one who loves it but would always feel in a reading that I'm not doing it justice at all and that there are answers I'm not going to divine even though they're staring me in the face. Just my impressions. But you just sort of plod on and be inferior.

this touches a bit on why i started this thread in the first place. i didn't just know intellectually that i was missing chunks, i also got the feeling in my bones. it's like ... here i am, delivering pizza, i guess it's a ferrari italia i'm driving (which i know little about) but maybe it's actually a lamborghini veneno roadster (way way WAY over my head). but boy, is it ever fun, and the motor purrs like a big fat cat. while i step on the clutch that responds like miles davis and john coltrane jamming, i wonder, what else can this thing do? meanwhile, i plod on in that inferior way, something that i DO have lots of experience with

(and who knows? maybe the pizza comes with a 1,000 dollar bill)