gregory
RWS - sure, much used. "Rider" - not so good.
And as I just said - run with a TdM then. Thoth pips are NOT unillustrated.
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Vision Quest - Thoth based deck
And as I just said - run with a TdM then. Thoth pips are NOT unillustrated.
DesertDream
The "technique" (it is rather more than that) of reading Thoth applies to the Thoth deck and to a degree to Liber-T, Via and Rosetta. Not to any other deck. That's just the way it is.
If you want to read unillustrated pip cards you'd be better off looking at a Marseilles deck. The Thoth pips are VERY thoroughly illustrated - you just aren't seeing that.
Astrological links are various. There is LOADS about that in other threads - it isn't something I get into - except with Thoth. The Waite-Smith cards also have astrological associations. Waite just hid them more thoroughly. He considered Crowley's astrology to be natural magic, and fairly useless; he thought most astrology at that time was "degraded" by the people who had developed horoscopes, and wanted to take it back to its "pure" form. You'd better get hold of Waite's Complete Manual of Occult Divination to see all he had to say about that.
I think they are very illustrated but if you learn the attributes i dont think it would have to be done all over again since they would be memorized. So do you think a Marseilles would better compare to VQ than thoth? And are you saying what waite did with astrology is better than what crowley did with it since i dont know if ac got into horoscopes.
DesertDream
RWS - sure, much used. "Rider" - not so good.
And as I just said - run with a TdM then. Thoth pips are NOT unillustrated.
I was refering to the VQ deck not the thoth deck. The VQ deck is a little less illustrated and not pictureqse.
gregory
I am not saying either is better, just that they are very different.I think they are very illustrated but if you learn the attributes i dont think it would have to be done all over again since they would be memorized. So do you think a Marseilles would better compare to VQ than thoth? And are you saying what waite did with astrology is better than what crowley did with it since i dont know if ac got into horoscopes.
You said
The plainest unillustratedest ones are unquestionably TdM. I wouldn't compare them to VQ either.I want to know how to read plain illustrated symbols.
DesertDream
I am not saying either is better, just that they are very different.
You said
The plainest unillustratedest ones are unquestionably TdM. I wouldn't compare them to VQ either.
So with the VQ the only thing that can apply is the lwb? I wouldnt really see the point of study since VQ is closer to thoth than TdM and if i want to learn how to study illustrated symbols and not more picturesqe decks like the rider deck the lwb would be the only place to turn and it does not teach you seperate from interpritations how to go about reading the suit symbols or why the numbers/element of whatever suit is relevant so i supposed to turn to thoth because it has the numbers/elements used in the same relevance. I dont know how to translate the suits and whichever numbers they are in by themselfs or how to go about it
This is a common occurance in decks so its traditional but what tradition to study with that system so i can interprit them is so far, seemingly up in the air. My best guest is to combine numberology, elemental esoteric associations and suit symbols to best derive an answer.
Richard
Reading Thoth is not merely a matter of using certain astrological and Qabalistic associations. Understanding the deck (as it was intended to be understood) involves a great deal of other material, such as alchemy and Egyptian mythology. Moreover, Thoth is much more than the sum of its Qabalistic, astrological, alchemical, and mythological associations. Everything is brought together into a consistent and cohesive unit by its Thelemic perspective.
However, many people "read" Thoth without alluding to its unique construction.
There are even books that explain how to "read" Thoth without particular reference to its intended thrust.
Anyhow, as closrapexa has made abundantly clear, the only way to correctly read Thoth is to understand the Thoth deck itself, not some other deck which uses some of the same "keywords." What you are trying to do with the VQ is like trying to make fish taste like hamburger. Go ahead and use and enjoy the VQ, but don't try to make of it something that it isn't.
However, many people "read" Thoth without alluding to its unique construction.
There are even books that explain how to "read" Thoth without particular reference to its intended thrust.
Anyhow, as closrapexa has made abundantly clear, the only way to correctly read Thoth is to understand the Thoth deck itself, not some other deck which uses some of the same "keywords." What you are trying to do with the VQ is like trying to make fish taste like hamburger. Go ahead and use and enjoy the VQ, but don't try to make of it something that it isn't.
DesertDream
Reading Thoth is not merely a matter of using certain astrological and Qabalistic associations. Understanding the deck (as it was intended to be understood) involves a great deal of other material, such as alchemy and Egyptian mythology. Moreover, Thoth is much more than the sum of its Qabalistic, astrological, alchemical, and mythological associations. Everything is brought together into a consistent and cohesive unit by its Thelemic perspective.
However, many people "read" Thoth without alluding to its unique construction.
There are even books that explain how to "read" Thoth without particular reference to its intended thrust.
Anyhow, as closrapexa has made abundantly clear, the only way to correctly read Thoth is to understand the Thoth deck itself, not some other deck which uses some of the same "keywords." What you are trying to do with the VQ is like trying to make fish taste like hamburger. Go ahead and use and enjoy the VQ, but don't try to make of it something that it isn't.
If i were to take anything from the thoth to help me the very most it would be how to read suits with numbers only and not heavily detailed pictures. Which brought me to the conclusion of incorporaring numberolgy, suits symbols and elemental associations to best derive the answer of cards in VQ. This is what i am after the most.
Richard
Excellent! You have my blessing (for what it's worth). I do the same with the Tarot de Marseille and its non-scenic pips.If i were to take anything from the thoth to help me the very most it would be how to read suits with numbers only and not heavily detailed pictures. Which brought me to the conclusion of incorporaring numberolgy, suits symbols and elemental associations to best derive the answer of cards in VQ. This is what i am after the most.
Emily
If i were to take anything from the thoth to help me the very most it would be how to read suits with numbers only and not heavily detailed pictures. Which brought me to the conclusion of incorporaring numberolgy, suits symbols and elemental associations to best derive the answer of cards in VQ. This is what i am after the most.
I don't have the Vision Quest and so have been watching some of the reviews of it on youtube. The LWB is a very large and detailed compared to other deck LWB's. I know you want to use other symbolism and numerology with the Vision Quest but the deck might not lend itself to that - some decks don't and you would be forcing meanings that wouldn't fit with the deck. For one, it is very detailed and to get the most from the Vision Quest you would have to read the symbolism that is presented in the deck which is Native American.
If you want to learn how to read unillustrated pip cards then something like the TdM's or a Soprafino will help you do that. You will be able to use numerology, suits symbols, elemental associations and anything else you want to attach to the pip cards.
DesertDream
I don't have the Vision Quest and so have been watching some of the reviews of it on youtube. The LWB is a very large and detailed compared to other deck LWB's. I know you want to use other symbolism and numerology with the Vision Quest but the deck might not lend itself to that - some decks don't and you would be forcing meanings that wouldn't fit with the deck. For one, it is very detailed and to get the most from the Vision Quest you would have to read the symbolism that is presented in the deck which is Native American.
If you want to learn how to read unillustrated pip cards then something like the TdM's or a Soprafino will help you do that. You will be able to use numerology, suits symbols, elemental associations and anything else you want to attach to the pip cards.
Looking at the deck i would say it does have those associates and although the lwb is generally more detailed i feel it does not fully touch on what is incoporated in the deck. I assume the author thought the reader would use existing texts. But i do wish it had a full on companion book, which i doubt will ever happen.
