t.Pluto

LovelyMissAries

Transiting Pluto has been in my 7th house for years. When is it going to GET OUT?! I think my relationships may have been longer lasting (save I have Uranus in my 7th house too) or not as painful if I didn't have Pluto raining down over my 7th house. It's a little more than halfway across the arch. Help!
 

Ronia

It depends on how big your 7th is but Pluto takes more than 280 years to transit all signs. Besides, Pluto alone is not and could not be responsible for your relationships and whatever is happening with them, IMHO. I am one who uses outers, by the way. In addition, Pluto demolishes what is already gone, like it or not.
 

Minderwiz

Without your chart, or at least your 7th house details, I can't give you a complete answer but as Ronia says Pluto takes an awful long time to do a circuit of the zodiac. In fact it takes 242 years, though because of it's highly eccentric orbit and exceptional inclination to the ecliptic, it can spend a very long time in some signs and much shorter in others. It's going to be in Capricorn till 2024 (allowing for retrograde spells). So it depends how much of Sagittarius is in your seventh and where the 8th cusp lies for an accurate answer.

I agree with Ronia about it not being the cause of your relationship problems (at least not on its own, though some Astrologers might be concerned if it made hard aspects to important personal planets, or to Jupiter as ruler of your seventh(?)).
 

LovelyMissAries

Thank you Ronia, and thank you Minderwiz.

I agree one planet isn't the sole cause of my sporadic relationships / failures. But since it destroys everything it comes across and it has been in there awhile, I had concerns.

To answer your question and in hopes of learning more about astrology, my DSC is in Sagittarius at 23.46 degrees. This is using Placidus. I have Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune in my 7H and Capricorn makes up more of my 7H than Sagittarius. It also takes up much of my 8H as well, but Aquarius takes up the last 8 degrees of it before it moves into the 9H.

Jupiter is in the 12H and in detriment being in Gemini, but doesn't aspect much. It semi-squares my Aries stellium in the 11H (Sun, Mercury, Venus). It inconjuncts Uranus in the 7H again and is bi-quintile Neptune also in the 7H, however I was told these aspects don't really do much because a) they are to outer planets and b) they are part of the lesser aspects.
 

zhan.thay

Provisional chart details

my DSC is in Sagittarius at 23.46 degrees. This is using Placidus. I have Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune in my 7H and Capricorn makes up more of my 7H than Sagittarius. It also takes up much of my 8H as well, but Aquarius takes up the last 8 degrees of it before it moves into the 9H.

Jupiter is in the 12H and in detriment being in Gemini, but doesn't aspect much. It semi-squares my Aries stellium in the 11H (Sun, Mercury, Venus). It inconjuncts Uranus in the 7H again and is bi-quintile Neptune also in the 7H, however I was told these aspects don't really do much because a) they are to outer planets and b) they are part of the lesser aspects.

Hi, using the details you provided I erected a chart so that I could get a better feel for what was going on in a more wholistic sense. My astrology program came up with a chart based on some guesses by me for 9:06:20 am 5 Apr 1989 at New York, NY. You don't have to confirm, deny or amend that if you don't wish to but the astrologers here who would like to help you would be very much assisted if you provided accurate time, date & place.

There is a lot more going on in that chart which may be having impacts on the 7th house. 1. Natal Pluto 14 Sco VI is sextile the Neptune Saturn conj.
2. Chiron 2 Can I is opp Uranus.
3. Mystic Rectangle (Sat, Nep, Ura stellium) trine S Nod 4 Vir IV sextile Chiron trine N Node sextile
4. T-square Chiron square Moon 7 Ari XI square Uranus
5. (Sun, Venus, Mercury stellium) Ari XI square Sat conj Neptune

Sorry for all the jargon & shorthand. My thought is that there is a great deal to be learnt from your birthchart in regard to your attitudes and responses in relationships and the ways that partners perceive those. With the involvement of the Nodes and Chiron consideration has to be given to the Karma of the situation and the lessons and imperatives shown in the chart.

I'm not saying you should disregard Pluto's transit. Maybe it is indicating the need for an intense, determined research as the basis for a reformulation of your ideals.

Please remember also, one of the old axioms of astrology: "The stars incline but do not compel." Whatever influence may appear to be coming from the stars, the human will has potential to be stronger. If you find it difficult to utilise the energies, see if you can banish the ones you feel are baneful.

Because it's late here in Australia, and I'm tired, I'm not going to give more interpretation of those aspect patterns I listed above. Hopefully, someone else may before I get back here. All the best in love and light.
 

Ronia

I agree one planet isn't the sole cause of my sporadic relationships / failures. But since it destroys everything it comes across and it has been in there awhile, I had concerns.

I strongly disagree with this! Pluto doesn't destroy everything. It may very well help you change your attitude though. With Uranus and Neptune in the 7th, and the adventurous Sag leading the show, it may come in handy to learn Pluto's lesson. Pluto rules Scorpio. Scorpio loves intensely, deeply and devotedly. Pluto is also a "cold flame" and doesn't burn out quickly. I think it's pretty clear what Pluto as Scorpio ruler would destroy, and definitely not "everything it comes across"! Gosh, how would we all survive Pluto's transits if that was the case? LOL He's transiting my 1st whole sign, should I be destroyed? What when he reaches my Ascendant? LOL (on the other hand, Saturn is in your 7th and if it's in its own sign, should bring some stability, depending on his aspects, but I'd rather expect it to require discipline, perseverance and responsibility for all your actions!)

P.S. I'm speaking as someone who has lost a family member at Sun/Pluto and Pluto/Sun double whammy. I do know Pluto rules death as well and it's pointless to pretend death doesn't exist which is also a Scorpio/Pluto lesson - the circle of life as it is, not as we prefer to see it. There is beginning and there is end. Understanding the dynamics and accepting the simple fact that life and everything in it is a journey - this is part of Pluto's lesson. To a certain extend, I think it ruins the "lived happily ever after" dream for many, if they ever believed in it.

P.P.S. If I understand correctly, you're Aries with Gemini Ascendant and Dsc in Sag and three personal planets in the 11th??? I can't see why you expect yourself to be on the stable, steady side of things... :D
 

LovelyMissAries

Hi, using the details you provided I erected a chart so that I could get a better feel for what was going on in a more wholistic sense. My astrology program came up with a chart based on some guesses by me for 9:06:20 am 5 Apr 1989 at New York, NY. You don't have to confirm, deny or amend that if you don't wish to but the astrologers here who would like to help you would be very much assisted if you provided accurate time, date & place.

:bugeyes: Wow. How long did it take you to learn how to erect charts? You're pretty close. April 7th, 1989 at 9:56 A.M. in Henderson, Nevada.

Pluto is in my 5th house. To me it actually teeters on the edge of my 6th house, but I have been told it is firmly in my 5th. It is sextile Neptune and conj. Saturn. Sigh... again, I wasn't aware that had any affect because they were outers aspecting each other and not personal planets. :/

I don't think anything squares my Chiron in my chart. My ASC conjuncts it, and then my Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Mars make aspects to my ASC. I'm not sure if that counts though.

In any case, I must have a lot of relationship karma. I try my best to see the patterns and learn in my relationships during and after they end, but it's just frustrating they end. I have Mars in the 12th, Saturn in the 7th, and Moon (11H) trine Saturn (trine that 7H stellium actually)

Yes, I agree we always have our free will. :) Ah... I didn't know Pluto could indicate research, plain and simply. That makes so much sense! My 6H is ruled by Scorpio although Pluto itself is in my 5H.

Thanks for the inspiration. :)
 

LovelyMissAries

I strongly disagree with this! Pluto doesn't destroy everything. It may very well help you change your attitude though. With Uranus and Neptune in the 7th, and the adventurous Sag leading the show, it may come in handy to learn Pluto's lesson. Pluto rules Scorpio. Scorpio loves intensely, deeply and devotedly. Pluto is also a "cold flame" and doesn't burn out quickly. I think it's pretty clear what Pluto as Scorpio ruler would destroy, and definitely not "everything it comes across"! Gosh, how would we all survive Pluto's transits if that was the case? LOL He's transiting my 1st whole sign, should I be destroyed? What when he reaches my Ascendant? LOL (on the other hand, Saturn is in your 7th and if it's in its own sign, should bring some stability, depending on his aspects, but I'd rather expect it to require discipline, perseverance and responsibility for all your actions!)

P.S. I'm speaking as someone who has lost a family member at Sun/Pluto and Pluto/Sun double whammy. I do know Pluto rules death as well and it's pointless to pretend death doesn't exist which is also a Scorpio/Pluto lesson - the circle of life as it is, not as we prefer to see it. There is beginning and there is end. Understanding the dynamics and accepting the simple fact that life and everything in it is a journey - this is part of Pluto's lesson. To a certain extend, I think it ruins the "lived happily ever after" dream for many, if they ever believed in it.

P.P.S. If I understand correctly, you're Aries with Gemini Ascendant and Dsc in Sag and three personal planets in the 11th??? I can't see why you expect yourself to be on the stable, steady side of things... :D


So Pluto can have positive affects as well? Why do so many people bemoan its presence?! How does he affect you / your life transiting through the 1st house? Very wise words about beginning and ends, yes it does ruin happily ever after but I've been transitioning away from that "The One" mentality for awhile (ah, maybe because of Pluto!) I just wish it didn't make me bitter in the process.

Yes, Saturn is in the 7H and in it's own sign, trine my Moon which brings me to my point - I crave that stability! And I'm more Saturnine than meets the eye.:D I have Sun, Mercury, and Venus square Saturn as well as that trine with my Moon.
 

Minderwiz

:bugeyes: Wow. How long did it take you to learn how to erect charts? You're pretty close. April 7th, 1989 at 9:56 A.M. in Henderson, Nevada.

I like bugeyes projection :) If you thing about it, with a Descendant in Sagittarius, your Ascendant must be in Gemini (23:46) and you've given away the rough positions of certain planets, so it's possible to start homing in on years. You are LovelyMissAries, so it's a reasonable guess that your Sun is in Aries and there's a correlation between Ascendant and Sun position for rising signs. That being said, bugeyes has done an great job in homing in on a date.

I strongly disagree with this! Pluto doesn't destroy everything. It may very well help you change your attitude though. With Uranus and Neptune in the 7th, and the adventurous Sag leading the show, it may come in handy to learn Pluto's lesson.

I'm not a Pluto user for a variety of reasons but if Pluto is going to be used then it must have positive as well as negative traits. Ronia is one of the few people that I know that sees this clearly, even Dave finds it difficult to find anything good to say about it. However it's a key feature of Astrology that planets are not always 'good' or 'bad' they can be useful in some circumstances, even Pluto and destructive in others, even Venus and Jupiter.

Ronia said:
Pluto rules Scorpio. Scorpio
Why?? I hope you have a sound basis for assigning rulerships - are you sure it's not Charon? :) I'm not trying to start a Pluto debate, as Dave seems to be taking a break and therefore I can't wind him up LOL but unless you're going for rough affinities for rulership (in the same way that Mars is said to rule the colour red, you need to have a thought out system. If you are using affinities, sadly it comes down to your views against others. Even the rulerships of objects is a mass of contradictions and opinions based on whatever feature is seen to be the defining characteristic - which in turn can shift depending on circumstances.

I'd also just make a comment on Sun/Pluto and Pluto/Sun transits (or indeed Pluto and any other planet) - There's a very significant difference between the two, apart from which is the transiting planet. A Pluto transit can take 15 years or so, depending on sign and orb allowed - possibly longer if there's a retrograde period involved between begininng to apply and the completion of separation. A Sun Transit takes 16 days, allowing an 8 degree orb. An awful lot more can happen in 10-15 years than in 16 days, when it comes to the movement of other planets and events in your life. If you bring the Pluto orb down to 1 degree this reduces the time to about a year or even just several months, but it's still a relatively long transit time. If you are going to use Pluto transits then be careful about the actual length of time you're allowing and always check for other planetary movement.

LittleMissAries said:
Pluto is in my 5th house. To me it actually teeters on the edge of my 6th house, but I have been told it is firmly in my 5th.

Whereas your Descendant does not depend on the quadrant house system you're using, your fifth/sixth does - it depends how the quadrant is subdivided to obtain the intermediate houses.

I use Regiomontanus and I have your Pluto some 4 degrees from the cusp of the sixth, which if I did use it, I'd treat as sixth. If I used Campanus, I'd find it in the sixth and with Porpyry just over 2 degrees from the sixth cusp. If you used whole sign houses it would be in the sixth. In other words it becomes more sixth with some house systems.

Whether this makes a tremendous difference to a reading of your chart is debatable but I'd say it was unlikely, given all the other placements.

LittleMissAries[/quote said:
I don't think anything squares my Chiron in my chart. My ASC conjuncts it, and then my Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Mars make aspects to my ASC. I'm not sure if that counts though.

I've not tried adding in every asteroid and hypothetical but there are no squares to Chiron at 2 degrees Cancer. The Aries planets sextile the Ascendant but they are too far from forming a sextile to Chiron.

Finally you originally asked when Pluto would leave your seventh, and up to now no one has answered that - it will leave your seventh on 2nd January 2017.
 

Ronia

LovelyMissAries , each planet has positive effects. I'm a Scorpio sun, so I do recognise what Pluto brings with it. I went deeper into some practices I used to practice when I was a child as Pluto approaches my Ascendant. I am literally reinventing myself (however, not that I'm just out of Saturn over my Sun transit, that Pluto is squaring himsxelf in the 8th and Uranus is opposing this same natal Pluto in the 8th, so the whole picture is more than one planet). I'm changing in Scorpionic areas which are quite personal and am not going to share publicly but instead of astrological books, I'd recommend mythology for better understanding of the outers, specifically.

Why people groan about Pluto specifically? Because people, in their vast majority, are the only species on this planet which refuses to accept the simple fact that eternity does not exist as they want it to. Only energy is eternal. People are the only species who are trying to avoid endings, clinge to people and things, play the smart guy and go out of their way to not let go while the only way to be free is to let go. Ultimatively. This is Pluto (or Hades, or any other underworld god you take from those I've studied). It's all about change with capital C. Because change is what makes this Universe exist. If it stops changing even for a second, we'll be all gone, with all our stuff. All species on Earth understand it intuitively, we don't want to because we think we're too smart for that. Then comes Pluto. It's the same as when people ask a card reading and start popping eyes when the see a death card. It's like they don't know death exists. But it does and doesn't care if they will pop their eyes or not. Simple.

However, they do miss the point about birth. I'll venture to say that to me, when I look at a Solar Return, a pregnancy can be indicated by Pluto + other planets, not on his own, but I've found him more than once signifying the *rebirth*. Because as energy is all about change, it doesn\t just disappear and what ends, must be restarted, the energy must go somewhere. This is again about the circle of life and so on.

I also want to note that, to me, no planet can cause via transit what is not in the natal chart. Therefore, you should look at your natal to define your strengths and weaknesses in relationships. A transiting planet can only emphasize what is given (or taken) at birth. IMHO, of course.

Minderwiz, I do take Pluto as Scorpio ruler due to my background in phylology which included extensive study of mythology + ethnology. Death - 8th - Hades (Pluto). 8th is still house of death, we haven't yet accepted the blah-blah about transformation and living forever, yes? Taxes? Thinks of underworld, they have good tax system. Leave everything at the door, we'll take the rest of you. :D Other people's resources? Yes, especially when they didn't have access to their own anymore. Zombies, vampires, demons inhabiting living bodies... :D I come from the god, not from the astrological understanding of the planet. I, as a Scorpio myself, do not recognize Mars as good enough ruler for our sign. I do see him clearly in every Aries I know (or person with strong Aries presence in the chart), not in Scorpios (and I know many and have been studying *us* for many eyars as I wanted to trace some things and find out if there were similarities). Mars is too open, you know? If Mars goes against, it's obvious, when Mars goes to war it's with drums and crowds throwing flowers at his feet, he's Caesar, Napoleon, grandoman, he's the Charioteer in Tarot with the laurel wreath on his head. Scorpio is not like this, this is just an example, a short one. I am by no means making anyone believe in Pluto as a Scorpio ruler but I, as a Scorpio, find Hades/Pluto and other underworld gods in mythology far more fitting us than Mars. :) There is too much hidden, deeper and secretive in Scorpio for Mars. Too much patience for Mars. Too much observation and last but not least, I will never see Martian people undoing themselves the way Scorpios do. Martian people will fight to death but won't choose to end themselves even if the defeat is clear. Martian people won the II World War. So, it's good we have Martian people, very good. But we are not exactly like them.

I do find Pluto useful in many areas indeed. I also appreciate the power and endurance (not the Saturnian perseverance and patience) he grants, not for free though. And the phylosophy of the whole underworld mythology is fascinating to me (and for many fellow Scorpios I've explained it to). May be because I was born near where Orpheus was born or because it's a land of magic and old legends which were not gentle, changed, adapted or politically correct but were truer.

I lost a family member when Pluto was on my natal Sun but only after transiting Sun conjunct my natal Pluto.