jmd
These threads arise out of some of the general questions on the Marseille, and seek to make it easier to sort and find more specific queries...
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Quick questions about... the Star
kwaw
What kind of bird would you say it is on the card?
Kwaw
Kwaw
smleite
I think any black bird is symbolically a crow, or a raven. If the bird is black, as it always seems, it should be interpreted as THE black bird…
Silvia
Silvia
kwaw
Is it necessarily though a 'black' bird, or a 'silhouette' of a bird. If it were the silhouette of a pidgeon/dove for example, this would possibly indicate some interesting word play.
Kwaw
Kwaw
jmd
Are there not two ravens/crows on this card?
...or perhaps it is only in the French:
...or perhaps it is only in the French:
- 'Corbeaux'
smleite
Kwaw,
Well yes, I get the idea of it being “a bird”, any bird, and of course this gives a (very) different meaning to it. You would then have two choices of interpretation:
1 – a bird (the human soul, words received from Heaven, God or an angel’s voices, a possibility of sublimation, a vision of the Paradise, the Language of the Birds, etc.)
2 – a black bird, a crow or raven (an ancient symbol of the virtues Faith or Hope, the alchemical stage of Blackening, the transmission of a secret, a solar symbol, an esoteric symbol of light, etc.)
Both interpretations, of course, are somewhat interchangeable.
But I don’t find it easy to see a white dove represented by the dark silhouette of a bird. Unless, of course, there was something in the card, or in the whole Tarot system, that could give us the key of that symbolic inversion. If a black bird is not to be understood as black, them we will have to make the identification based in another aspect of it, rather then the colour; maybe the fact that it seems to be singing to the sky – could it be a rooster, announcing the new day?
There is an interesting phenomenon that a friend of mine once called my attention to, during a walk in the countryside. When the sun is about to set, birds sing more vigorously than ever; as soon as the sun sets, everything is quiet, and it takes a while before the animal’s noises are heard again. A last song to the setting sun?
Silvia
Well yes, I get the idea of it being “a bird”, any bird, and of course this gives a (very) different meaning to it. You would then have two choices of interpretation:
1 – a bird (the human soul, words received from Heaven, God or an angel’s voices, a possibility of sublimation, a vision of the Paradise, the Language of the Birds, etc.)
2 – a black bird, a crow or raven (an ancient symbol of the virtues Faith or Hope, the alchemical stage of Blackening, the transmission of a secret, a solar symbol, an esoteric symbol of light, etc.)
Both interpretations, of course, are somewhat interchangeable.
But I don’t find it easy to see a white dove represented by the dark silhouette of a bird. Unless, of course, there was something in the card, or in the whole Tarot system, that could give us the key of that symbolic inversion. If a black bird is not to be understood as black, them we will have to make the identification based in another aspect of it, rather then the colour; maybe the fact that it seems to be singing to the sky – could it be a rooster, announcing the new day?
There is an interesting phenomenon that a friend of mine once called my attention to, during a walk in the countryside. When the sun is about to set, birds sing more vigorously than ever; as soon as the sun sets, everything is quiet, and it takes a while before the animal’s noises are heard again. A last song to the setting sun?
Silvia
smleite
And back to the bird’s language: corbeau, corbeaux (ravens), corps beaux (beautiful body), and I can even see a corps (body) and eau / eaux (water).
Absolutely necessary to read Alain Bocher’s small text on this, translated by Rusty Neon: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=323924#post323924
Silvia
Absolutely necessary to read Alain Bocher’s small text on this, translated by Rusty Neon: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=323924#post323924
Silvia
Fulgour
Bennu Bird in the Persea Tree
The Bennu Bird was the incarnation of the Sun as it appeared
at the moment of creation alighting on the Benben stone, and
was created from the fire burning at dawn on the sacred Persea
Tree at Heliopolis.
Bennu "to rise, to shine"
http://www.phoenixarises.com/phoenix/legends/bennu.htm
The Benu (Bennu) by Jefferson Monet
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/benu.htm
Flowing from events since XIII, here in XVII there is renewal.
The Bennu in the Persea Tree, and the Goddess, pregnant.
As jmd is aware, I consider the Sun as the attribute of Le Toille.
(Phoenician letter 17 Pe.) Upon the arrival of Capricorn,
the Sun fits nicely, kind of like the observance of Christmas.
The Bennu Bird was the incarnation of the Sun as it appeared
at the moment of creation alighting on the Benben stone, and
was created from the fire burning at dawn on the sacred Persea
Tree at Heliopolis.
Bennu "to rise, to shine"
http://www.phoenixarises.com/phoenix/legends/bennu.htm
The Benu (Bennu) by Jefferson Monet
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/benu.htm
Flowing from events since XIII, here in XVII there is renewal.
The Bennu in the Persea Tree, and the Goddess, pregnant.
As jmd is aware, I consider the Sun as the attribute of Le Toille.
(Phoenician letter 17 Pe.) Upon the arrival of Capricorn,
the Sun fits nicely, kind of like the observance of Christmas.
smleite
So, when Fulgour mentions the Bennu bird, is mostly referring to the idea of a bird of “eternity”, a symbol of resurrection, rebirth, and revitalization – the phoenix also mentioned, and which we inherited from the Greek, inclusively as a Christian image. Its connection to Venus, the Morning Star, and to a sacred tree, is particularly appealing here.
We can approach this kind of imagery in several ways; the first level of exegesis takes us to the broader, even “universal” meaning of “a bird”. It is, I believe, very important to get acquainted with this level of interpretation, if one wishes to have some real knowledge of the Arcane. And a certain degree of truth will certainly be found.
Then, we could discuss which bird is this. Is it black or white? Is it a crow, a dove, a rooster? And, if trying to pursue an historical thread, is it an evocation of the Bennu bird, such as the phoenix? A mythic “primordial” bird is to be found in many cultures, as is the case of the Rukh of Arab mythology, or the Kirni that lives in Yggdrasil, the sacred tree from Nordic mythology (and many more). They are all associated to a tree, a representation of the axis of the world, and also a symbol of life in itself. They are also associated, of course, to a primordial egg, relating once more to Life, to birth (and rebirth).
To me, it is particularly important to keep in mind the main characteristics of a bird: it flies, it sings, it lays eggs.
Flying is all about finding a path to Heaven, and sublimation (sublimation of the body and matter in general, purification of the soul, elevation of the self…).
Singing is about delivering a spiritual message: listen to the crystalline, angelic voice that carries it. It demands from your ears - and this reminds me the French words oie (goose - again on the Language of the Birds) and oie (to listen, or hear). It demands from your deeper understanding.
Laying eggs is about Life, birth and rebirth, and the primordial mystery of the creation of the Universe.
We can approach this kind of imagery in several ways; the first level of exegesis takes us to the broader, even “universal” meaning of “a bird”. It is, I believe, very important to get acquainted with this level of interpretation, if one wishes to have some real knowledge of the Arcane. And a certain degree of truth will certainly be found.
Then, we could discuss which bird is this. Is it black or white? Is it a crow, a dove, a rooster? And, if trying to pursue an historical thread, is it an evocation of the Bennu bird, such as the phoenix? A mythic “primordial” bird is to be found in many cultures, as is the case of the Rukh of Arab mythology, or the Kirni that lives in Yggdrasil, the sacred tree from Nordic mythology (and many more). They are all associated to a tree, a representation of the axis of the world, and also a symbol of life in itself. They are also associated, of course, to a primordial egg, relating once more to Life, to birth (and rebirth).
To me, it is particularly important to keep in mind the main characteristics of a bird: it flies, it sings, it lays eggs.
Flying is all about finding a path to Heaven, and sublimation (sublimation of the body and matter in general, purification of the soul, elevation of the self…).
Singing is about delivering a spiritual message: listen to the crystalline, angelic voice that carries it. It demands from your ears - and this reminds me the French words oie (goose - again on the Language of the Birds) and oie (to listen, or hear). It demands from your deeper understanding.
Laying eggs is about Life, birth and rebirth, and the primordial mystery of the creation of the Universe.
kwaw
smleite said:I think any black bird is symbolically a crow, or a raven. If the bird is black, as it always seems, it should be interpreted as THE black bird…
Silvia
Is it black in all Marseille pattern versions? I can't find it, but I recall the bird being the same colour as the star [blue, I think] in one version I have seen. Can anyone confirm this, or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Kwaw
