Emperpor and hierophant

WhyWuh

Thirteen said:
Ah, but is the HPS "wife" to the Hierophant or to the Magician? The Magician is all about talk, she's about silence. He's out in the open, she's inside. She fits well with him. And how about the Hermit? She could be wife to him, too. Both solitary, focused on knowledge...Yes, I know, technically "high priest" and "high priestess." So what about the Hierophant and HPS? The opposition here is not "outer" vs. "inner" spirituality. It's between social vs. solitary spirituality. The Hierophant's job is to make the divine "earthly." Which is like a minister explaining to someone why they shouldn't have sex before marriage. This is the "tradition" of the church, and there is a spiritual reason for it (presumably). A "Higher purpose." His job is to explain to a lay person, who has no spiritual understanding, why they should keep to this tradition. Why it is in their spiritual interests to do so. Thus, everyone in the tribe (or Empire) follows the "tradition."

You asked if he holds spirituality inside himself. And he does: by *internalizing* the traditions. Like someone who crosses themselves when they enter a church--the tradition is a manifestation of inner spirituality. Cross yourself, and you feel spiritual. Feel spiritual, and you cross yourself. Thus, the Hierophant aim is to instills spirituality into all by giving them these traditions to follow.

The HPS, on the other hand, meets with the person who wants to have sex before marriage; they ask whether they should do this. The Hierophant would say "NO," open his holy book, and explain why. The HPS, on the other hand, urges them to take time out and pray, meditate, go on dream quests (something like that). She believes that all divine knowledge is within us and with solitude and introspection, we will understand. So if not having sex before marriage is right, we can find out for ourselves. The Hermit, just to add, would take the "no sex before marriage" argument and say, "I'm going to investigate this further, shine a light on it from every angle. I want to really see this divine purpose in this before I follow it." And the Magician would simply throw out the idea "How about no sex before marriage? That sounds like an interesting thing to try."

As for the Emperor, he doesn't care about such. He might have an imperial law about "no sex before marriage," but if he does, it's only so that everyone knows who the father of the children are, so that the father can support those children or have rights to them. He doesn't care about the spiritual reasons, or keeping everyone spiritually unified by way of traditions, he cares about making sure there is order and everything is running smoothly. And he will change that law easily and quickly if it isn't working. The Hierophant would never do that.

thanks again.
It's very interesting how you compared all these three together. High priestess for me is all about higher spirituality. She is all into herself and then she is trying to find higher knowledge. Or she already knows it all? But for me she is about spirituality. She is like oracle. Knows it all and sometimes shares her knowledge with few lucky ones.
Hierophant is different. Now I see. Thank you. I see why he is guiding and not ruling. More like gentle (but firm) guidance that is needed instead of tough love. Some people can't handle emperor love and need hierophant guidance instead.
But magician for me is all about manipulation after all. He knows how to get what he wants even if it means other people getting hurt in the process.

Ruby Jewel

WhyWuh said:
But shouldn't cards represent one thing with one card and another thing with another card? It's like they're both separate things after all. Yes hierophant could desire to have family and stuff but he can't and for me it makes this card as higher love. Not family/kids type of love. And marriage (civil marriage) makes me think exactly of that. That's why it's more of an emperor thing for me. That earthy love that comes with daily chores, feeding your family and keeping yourself as a head of the family.

I'm not taking into consideration here the "family" or "marriage" concept as I don't see these major arcana cards as "mundane." For me, family life is an aspect of the minor arcana. I'm sorry for the confusion. I don't think we are on the same page.

Thirteen

WhyWuh said:
This is very interesting. Interesting that emperor is like a ruler. I alays saw magus as a ruler. He has all these tools and then he uses them to achieve his goal. He uses them to trick others into doing what he wants.

A ruler has to be more than that. After all, a salesman has tools and convinces people to do what he wants. But I don't think you'd call him a ruler. To me, rulers are those who, in addition to being able to convince people to do as they say, have long-term goals and, at their best, want everyone to prosper. Like a general leading an army. He wants to win the war (long term goal) and may want glory for himself. But if he's a good general, then he also wants to make sure that most of his soldiers survive and leave the battlefield with minimal damage.

And as you, yourself say, the Magus doesn't really care if those he's talks into doing something get hurt. What he cares about is seeing if his idea will work if and if it doesn't...well, everyone learned something right?

Onto the next idea. Very short-term goals there. So the Emperor is only like the Magician in being persuasive. .

Order but he gives that order with expectation (or is it knowing?) that it will be done the way he wants even when not telling how exactly. He just knows right?

In the best case, yes. Again, like that General and his soldiers. They do what he tells them because they trust he knows the big picture and is telling them to do this to achieve an important goal. One that will be good for everyone in the long run. That is the primary thing the Hierophant and the Emperor have in common. They work for the good of the "tribe" rather than that of individuals. And they expect everyone to do as they say, as what they say (presumably) is best for the majority. It may not, however, be good for certain individuals.

The Empress and the HPS are about what is good for the individual. So, rather than go to the priest with a problem and be told "tradition is you do X. That's what everyone is required to do" or the Emperor and be told "My law is you do Y. That's what I require everyone to do."--you go to, well, a tarot reader (HPS) or that motherly woman (or man) who seems to know how to fix/beautify anything. And these women (or men) guide you in finding your own, individual way through the problem. When the Empress hears your problem, she'll say "Knowing you, you should probably do this..." While the HPS (tarot reader) may say: "This is what's behind you, and this is what's before you, and here's the best outcome if things don't change...this knowledge should help you to see what you need to do."

They guide you on your individual path, rather than, like Emperor/Hierophant, on the larger path that society needs us to follow if we're going to be part of that society.

Thirteen

WhyWuh said:
She is like oracle. Knows it all and sometimes shares her knowledge with few lucky ones.

Oracles don't know it all. Think of stories of oracles. They get asked a question. Do they say, "oh yes, I know the answer to that...?" Nope. Most often they go into a trance and come back with information. Thus, what they *know* is how to find useful intel. That's why the HPS is often described as a librarian.

She finds the right information and gives it to you....and keep in mind that few oracle stories have the oracle telling the person what to do. It usually has them speaking in riddles and the person having to figure out what to do for themselves.

So. Yes. The HPS is an oracle. That means she doesn't tell the person what do to. She simply passes on important information that helps the person decide for themselves what to do.

Grizabella

The Obama family is a decent example of an Emperor and Empress. This is a family whose main goal is the running of a country for several years. They're very busy so they delegate family tasks to other people out of necessity and their marriage probably doesn't get a whole heap of attention, either, unless it's on vacation. And privacy to be just a family isn't in great, either. He's running the country and she's doing her part by having pet projects, like nutrition for children and creating her vegetable garden.

The Kings and Queens come closer to being the ordinary couple, although they don't have a conventional family life, either, most likely.

Trump would be the Magician---trying to be master of illusion and getting others to believe what he wants them to believe that's usually something other than the reality. Milania is the HPS, not saying much and not playing a part in the ruling of the country. I don't know how spiritual she is, though, because we haven't seen that much of her yet.

In the book that comes with the Gilded Tarot, the text in the book explaining the Hierophant is a good one. It says the Hierophant is someone who teaches people what the Universe and spirituality are all about. His concept of that, anyway. I don't remember the exact textual content on the card.

WhyWuh

SweetSiren said:
When it comes to readings, I find that the emperor shows up when there is a strong opinion about something. He can also mean that there is a male of some importance. With the emperor, someone's actions or thoughts are crucial to the circumstances, this person could change things.

The hierophant, I see it more as guidance from someone. The similarity is that they are both higher up on the mental hierarchy, but emperor controls a situation and the hierophant suggests how the situation could go. Emperor stands out, hierophant seeks to keep the status quo.

Thank you. It really helps me to understand. Hierophant is more like gentlier form of guidance when emperor is strict and you have to obey (or at least he wants you to obey) him. It's nice that you found some time to respond and help me to understand.

WhyWuh

Thirteen said:
A ruler has to be more than that. After all, a salesman has tools and convinces people to do what he wants. But I don't think you'd call him a ruler. To me, rulers are those who, in addition to being able to convince people to do as they say, have long-term goals and, at their best, want everyone to prosper. Like a general leading an army. He wants to win the war (long term goal) and may want glory for himself. But if he's a good general, then he also wants to make sure that most of his soldiers survive and leave the battlefield with minimal damage.

I see why it should be emperor at it's finest. Emperor should be as this general. To make other people survive. To guide others. But at the same time shouldn't emperor to be strict? It seems like he can be caring when he wants to but at the same time he cares because it benefits himself. Isn't it? Like if he came home with his soldiers undamaged it would benefit him. He owuld have army to go to the next battle. Right?

Thirteen said:
And as you, yourself say, the Magus doesn't really care if those he's talks into doing something get hurt. What he cares about is seeing if his idea will work if and if it doesn't...well, everyone learned something right? Onto the next idea. Very short-term goals there. So the Emperor is only like the Magician in being persuasive. .

In the best case, yes. Again, like that General and his soldiers. They do what he tells them because they trust he knows the big picture and is telling them to do this to achieve an important goal. One that will be good for everyone in the long run. That is the primary thing the Hierophant and the Emperor have in common. They work for the good of the "tribe" rather than that of individuals. And they expect everyone to do as they say, as what they say (presumably) is best for the majority. It may not, however, be good for certain individuals.

The Empress and the HPS are about what is good for the individual. So, rather than go to the priest with a problem and be told "tradition is you do X. That's what everyone is required to do" or the Emperor and be told "My law is you do Y. That's what I require everyone to do."--you go to, well, a tarot reader (HPS) or that motherly woman (or man) who seems to know how to fix/beautify anything. And these women (or men) guide you in finding your own, individual way through the problem. When the Empress hears your problem, she'll say "Knowing you, you should probably do this..." While the HPS (tarot reader) may say: "This is what's behind you, and this is what's before you, and here's the best outcome if things don't change...this knowledge should help you to see what you need to do."

They guide you on your individual path, rather than, like Emperor/Hierophant, on the larger path that society needs us to follow if we're going to be part of that society.

So empress and high priestess are all about individuals 'it's best for you so you should do this' 'I see this so if you do this an outcome is that' when emperor and hierophant are about 'what you have to do is because it's good for everyone' right? Or at least I am starting to get such impression. Like both emperor and hierophant are all about bigge circle of people rather than one individual. Hierophant like a priest that has his church and knows his people but that guides everyone together when at the same time guiding each of them separately.

WhyWuh

Thirteen said:
Oracles don't know it all. Think of stories of oracles. They get asked a question. Do they say, "oh yes, I know the answer to that...?" Nope. Most often they go into a trance and come back with information. Thus, what they *know* is how to find useful intel. That's why the HPS is often described as a librarian. She finds the right information and gives it to you....and keep in mind that few oracle stories have the oracle telling the person what to do. It usually has them speaking in riddles and the person having to figure out what to do for themselves.

So. Yes. The HPS is an oracle. That means she doesn't tell the person what do to. She simply passes on important information that helps the person decide for themselves what to do.

Your example with librarian is closest to how I see high priestess. She is secretive because she knows what we don't but at the same time she doesn't share her knowledge (or shares, as I told before, just with few chosen ones). She remains quiet because her knowledge already makes her stand higher than the rst of the world. She KNOWS. And knowledge is the greatest strength and the greatest weapon. Knwledge is everything.

WhyWuh

Grizabella said:
The Obama family is a decent example of an Emperor and Empress. This is a family whose main goal is the running of a country for several years. They're very busy so they delegate family tasks to other people out of necessity and their marriage probably doesn't get a whole heap of attention, either, unless it's on vacation. And privacy to be just a family isn't in great, either. He's running the country and she's doing her part by having pet projects, like nutrition for children and creating her vegetable garden.

The Kings and Queens come closer to being the ordinary couple, although they don't have a conventional family life, either, most likely.

Trump would be the Magician---trying to be master of illusion and getting others to believe what he wants them to believe that's usually something other than the reality. Milania is the HPS, not saying much and not playing a part in the ruling of the country. I don't know how spiritual she is, though, because we haven't seen that much of her yet.

In the book that comes with the Gilded Tarot, the text in the book explaining the Hierophant is a good one. It says the Hierophant is someone who teaches people what the Universe and spirituality are all about. His concept of that, anyway. I don't remember the exact textual content on the card.

But if hierophant teaches others how to become spiritual and connect to the universe he himself has to be spiritual. Isn't it? Shouldn't you have yourself what you teach others about? Like if you are a teacher of let's say maths, you know maths right?

Grizabella

WhyWuh said:
But if hierophant teaches others how to become spiritual and connect to the universe he himself has to be spiritual. Isn't it? Shouldn't you have yourself what you teach others about? Like if you are a teacher of let's say maths, you know maths right?

Yes, he'd pretty much have to be spiritual but it would be his own version of spirituality. Whether he was the Pope or just ordained by the Universal Life Church website, he'd have to at least resemble a spiritual person in order to have any students, right?

I thought the Gilded's version of the Hierophant's meaning was interesting and really quite accurate is why I mentioned it. I'm spiritual, but I don't go to church or subscribe to the mainstream religions---or any religion for that matter. I got confused when I was growing up because there was so much that wasn't making sense to me with the religious teachings I grew up with. I finally just decided to deal with God one-on-one and go from there. That's what works for me. I don't need to have anyone as a go-between and that's what works for me.

Emperpor and hierophant

WhyWuh

Ruby Jewel

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Thirteen

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Grizabella