Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks

Re: Modern Numerology

Rusty Neon said:

I thought I'd mention another numerology of potential application to the TdM is Modern Numerology (the movement started in the 20th century by Mrs. Dow Balliet). There are some linkages to Pythagorean numerology.

Here's a list of keywords from Matthew Oliver Goodwin:

1 - Individuation, Independence, Attainment
2 - Relation, Cooperation
3 - Expression, Joy of Living
4 - Limitation, Order, Service
5 - Constructive Freedom
6 - Balance, Responsibility, Love
7 - Analysis, Understanding
8 - Material Satisfaction
9 - Selflessness, Humanitarianism

There is no number 10 in Modern Numerology as 10 reduces to 1. However, I guess for the number 10, you could 'cheat' and use the meanings of Master Number 11

11 - Illumination

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These are interesting keywords, but I wonder how they could be used for divinatory meanings, since they're all positive (except for possibly "limitation"). The only way I can think of would be to use reversals, so that the reversed would be either too much of the upright (too much freedom, too much satisfaction) or the absence of the upright.

-- Lee

Here's a list of keywords that seems to be related to the ones Rusty Neon quoted, but these keywords also include negative attributes for each number. I got this from a numerology website: http://www.spiritlink.com/num1.html

1 Creativity, independence, originality, ego, self
2 Empathy, cooperation, consideration, over-sensitivity, co-dependence
3 Artistic expression, sociability, friendliness, superficiality, wastefulness
4 Practicality, application, loyalty, rigidity, repression
5 Freedom, adaptability, travel, inconsistency, abuse of senses
6 Love, responsibility, understanding, meddling, jealousy
7 Spirituality, mental analysis, wisdom, fault finding, suppression
8 Executive ability, management, power, materiality, unscrupulousness
9 Artistic genius, humanitarianism, romance, emotionalism, dissipation
11 Intuition, idealism, invention, insensitivity, fanaticism
22 Practical idealism, material mastery, get-rich-quick schemes, viciousness

-- Lee

This is what happens when I go away for a few days: wonderful discussions emerge (I should go away more often ).

With regards to numerology, two more ancient 'systems' which have not been explicitly mentioned are the letter-number variants of both Hebrew and ancient Greek (where the numbers were written with letters, so that Alef/Alpha is 'one', etc). Here, the considerations are somewhat different to Kabalistic considerations mentioned (which tends to use the Tree's emanations) or Pythagorean numerology (which is re-constructed from sparce tid-bits and relies on geometric considerations). In the 'letter' numerology, the implied or associated meanings of the letters become centrally important.

Personally, I do tend to use a combination of key-words and images as they appear. Of course, one may describe or list those key words, but the images conjured may so greatly depend on the deck (even which version of the Marseille) and the situation at hand.

...Thanks for the great thread

Originally posted by Lee regarding Mathers' use of Etteilla meanings in the creation of the Golden Dawn tarot system
When he later created the Golden Dawn tarot system, according to Decker/Dummett he only used the cabalistic and astrological elements, and they don't mention any Etteilla influence. Is it possible that the GD system doesn't rely at all on Etteilla, and that Etteilla only came back into the mix when Waite created his own deck?

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For pip cards, there is a more evident Etteilla influence on Waite than on the GD tarot system. However, nonetheless, I do sense some Eteilla influence in the pip card GD tarot system divinatory meanings listed in the GD manuscript _Book T_. This is a continuing project of mine. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Examples of possible Etteilla influences on Golden Dawn divinatory meanings per GD manuscript _Book T_ :

6 of Swords
Book T: Journey by water
Etteilla keyword / synonyms: Route / road, path

For those new to this issue, some handy internet sources:

GD manuscript _Book T_ at
http://www.private.org.il/GD/Book-T.html
or
http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no8/eqi08016.html
pip cards

Etteilla's divinatory meanings at:
http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm
pip cards

I wonder how Eteilla dreamed up his meanings.

Diana said:

I wonder how Eteilla dreamed up his meanings.

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According to Revak's site, Etteilla was influenced by pre-existing playing-card meanings (he had earlier written his own book of playing-card meanings, actually the first such book ever) as well the tarot Egyptian-origin theories of Gébelin and Mellet.

-- Lee

Thanks for the links, they're helpful to me as I don't have Book T.

-- Lee

Discussion of the GD system makes me wonder how useful it is as a method of interpreting pips. A while ago I once posted a question, does anyone read the pips of the Thoth, or any deck, by using the GD astrological associations? I didn't get a single positive response.

Mathers, when creating the GD system, seems to have really loaded up the pip cards with associations. He used Qabala (assigning the sephiroth of the Tree of Life to the pip numbers), astrology (planets in signs representing decans), and Etteilla. On top of all that, Decker/Dummett says that "Mathers also associated with each of these 36 numeral cards two of the 72 Cabalistic angels or divine emanations, whose names derive from the Cabalistic Shem ha-MePhoresch."

I wonder if the GD members really used all these associations when it actually came to reading with the cards, or if they basically went from the divinatory meanings listed in Book T. Maybe all those associations were meant more as a blueprint for study, for meditation, and for pathworking, but weren't meant to be taken seriously as elements to use when reading the cards.

-- Lee

I personally have no doubts that when cards fell in particular positions, GD members would have used the astrological decanates and Kabalistic associations connected thereto.

Though the system gives the appearance of complexity, it does have an ease about it too. After all, a 2, 3 or 4 would be within the decanates of a Cardinal sign, 5, 6 or seven a fixed sign, and 8, 9 or 10 mutable sign. Given its elemental attribution, this gives the sign and decanate quite quickly and easily. Likewise its Sefirah (correlated according to numeral order of emanation).

With only a little more study, the cards would yield yet more insights.

I write this off the top of my head, being someone who does not use GD associations... how much more 'natural' it would be for someone working daily and intently with GD materials! In fact, I suspect many GD people would have been influenced by such even more than the image in front of them (subject to personal temperament, of course).

Has anyone here read Mary Greer's book "Women of the Golden Dawn"? I haven't, but I understand it contains a detailed description of how a Golden Dawn type reading was done by its members.

-- Lee