Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks

smleite

Originally posted by jmd

(...) For those interested, six would form an octahedron (...)
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I am really interested. Could you please elaborate on this topic? I can’t seem to understand number six.

Originally posted by jmd

Personally, I do not advocate an association with the Major Arcana.
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I don’t know if this is off-topic, but I’ll give it a try. As I see it, the most important correlations between Tarot and Kabala are not to be found in the first ten major Arcana, but in the last ten. The truth is that I know VERY LITLLE about this subject, and I shouldn’t even be talking about it, but every time I look at the 22 major cards I see the first 12 as a depiction of a kind of “astrological” system, and the last ten as representative of the ten Sefirot, this latter system being hierarchically “superior” to the first. Therefore, I would much prefer to explore a possible association between the last ten majors and the pip cards. Does this deserve any comment from anyone?
 

jmd

Just in terms of replying to the question (I must have missed your post, smleite, my apologies), the six points upon a sphere, when equally spaced, form the apices of an octahedron (ie, a four-sided pyramid over an upside-down four-sided pyramid).

What's quite fascinating is that, for example, if one joins the centre of the six Coins together, not only is a hexagramme within a hexagon presented, but that the same figure can be perceived - in a 3-D form - to be the representation of an octahedron.

In terms of the Kabalah and Tarot, there are of course various correlations which various people have made.

One interesting one it the reverse of what you mention, for Wirth places the first on the Tree's Sefirot... Of course, there is no historical basis for this nor for the ones the Golden Dawn make, though each may yield interesting reflections.
 

tmgrl2

Just caught this thread again with some add-on posts....I have Silvie Simon's book (may be out of print, but I got it used for $3.00 at Amazon.com) ...will start a new thread later with it and add in this link...perhaps in History & I. With some caution to the reader to be discerning, I can say Simon does a fine job in English with Majors and Minor....I'll give some examples in new thread.
Called : The Tarot: Art, Mysticism and Divination.

will either add on here or start another thread, since it's the only book I have found in English that is reader-friendly, is based mostly on TdM (Grimaud cards mostly)...to be continued later...

terri
 

Keslynn

I'm bumping this thread because I'm just starting to explore reading with Marseilles decks. I've been reading through the various threads and following the links to numerological information to potentially be used for reading the minors. Like most other Marseilles newbies, I get the majors for the most part but am having a tougher time with minors.

In my searches I found this interesting page:
http://www.carm.org/questions/numbers.htm
which explains the Christian/Biblically-based meanings of numbers.

I'm just curious as to what personal numerological systems ya'll have been using for the minors when you read?

:) Kes
 

shaveling

Keslynn said:
I'm just curious as to what personal numerological systems ya'll have been using for the minors when you read?
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When I started reading about the number plus suit style of reading, I was discouraged, because none of the systems I found seemed quite right for me. The fives were a problem. I connect five with the quincunx (the pattern of the TdM fives of coins and cups: one in each corner, and one in the center). To me, this seems a more stable pattern than either the four or the six, but a lot of folks see the fives as a less stable transition between those two.

But I found a system that felt right for me. It's the one Papus sets forth in his Tarot of the Bohemians. He breaks up the numbers into patterns of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, with the ten as a sort of wild card, for times when life doesn't turn out so systematic. That makes sense for me.

However, I think the real selling point for his understanding of the numbers is that even numbers always have some note of the opposition characteristic of the two's. And odd numbers always carry forward the original impetus of the Aces. I think he's working with some really basic, powerful symbolism there. Of course, that approach takes care of my little "fives" hangup, too. The five shows whatever the suit symbolizes in that reading, carrying on successfully in the face of considerable opposition.

On the other hand, Papus' divinatory meanings of the suits are hopelessly limited. He wants me to start a new love affair every time I draw the Ace of Cups. Ain't gonna happen.

Here's the relevant chapter of Tarot of the Bohemians from The Internet Sacred Text Archive website:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob52.htm
 

Fulgour

shaveling said:
But I found a system that felt right for me.
It's the one Papus sets forth...
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Google Images Search: Papus Gérard Encausse

I think that if we keep in mind, a book is a book,
and dig deeper into Gérard Encausse, we benefit.
Papus fame is growing, Waite's ever diminishing.
 

Paul

Hi all --

For what it's worth, I have developed an entire system of reading the minors based on Papus, but not exactly like Papus. I use the Thesis/Antithesis/Synthesis motif and the Commencemnt/Opposition/Equilibrium motif, then layer-in all kinds of stuff. Moreover, as Shaveling pointed out, this makes the ODD numbers protagonistic, and the EVEN numbers antagonistic.
However, I do not really follow Papus' stage system, such as using the Cups cards only for a "love" question and finding the stage or evolution of the love matter.

Peek at my thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=32084. Start at the beginning for best clarity. It's called Paul's Tiered Minor Arcana System.

Take what ya' like and leave the rest.
 

Keslynn

Tentative Personal System

I have been working on my own personal system for reading the minors. I use a similar triad system to Papus and Paul's tiered system, but I think mine is more Qabalisticly (is that even a word?) based. I drew the Qabalah influence from a section in Lon Milo DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah where he describes the creation of the Tree. In short, existance started with one, unity. Then, as one began to think, It realized what it was (2 - being and reflection). 3 comes from It being able to discern what It is and isn't. For some reason, this really resonated with me, and it seems to work when applied to the minor arcana. It also seems to work when comparing the minor cards to the associated major aracana pairs.

So here goes and comments/criticisms are appreciated.

Triad is:
IMPULSE: pure energy and will, does not yet recognize what it is or the existence of others
AWARENESS: awareness of functioning in a larger universe, beginning to define, instinctive impressions, passive and reflective in flavor, can involve refinement of the initial impulse because it recognizes that one doesn’t operate in a vacuum
UNDERSTANDING: intelligence, combining awareness of your needs and those of others, knowledge of how the whole thing works
* 4 is manifestation of the prior triad but is also the spark for the next one.

By number:
IMPULSE TRIAD
1. Impulse
2. Awareness
3. Understanding

AWARENESS TRIAD
4. Impulse
5. Awareness
6. Understanding

UNDERSTANDING TRIAD
7. Impulse
8. Awareness
9. Understanding

10. Manifestation - impulse for courts?

Summaries
1. Impulse of Impulse
2. Awareness of Impulse
3. Understanding of Impulse
4. Impulse of Awareness/Manifestation of Impulse
5. Awareness of Awareness
6. Understanding of Awareness
7. Impulse of Understanding/Manifestation of Awareness
8. Awareness of Understanding
9. Understanding of Understanding
10. Manifestation of Understanding/Integration

OR

1. Raw element, urge, impulse
2. Learning, first contact with the other, limitation of options
3. Understanding, planning, proceeding, “getting it”
4. Solidity, acting accordingly in the world, feeling that there is something more
5. Recognition that the other is larger than you thought, making rules and philosophies, need to explain and give reasons
6. Evaluation of rules and processes, what does and does not work
7. Moving to a new level or ending it, decision-making, urge to use awareness to manipulate events to your purpose
8. Experimentation and observation, seeing one’s place in the universe and deciding how best to use it
9. Understanding how it all works and being able to show others, personal gnosis
10. Manifestation in the world, affects all parts of your life, seed of an entirely new impulse

Example (applied to tarot reading/learning)
1. Urge to learn tarot
2. Buying a deck and books, learning tarot
3. Beginning to understand and make your own card associations
4. Reading on a regular basis and discussing, urge to get better
5. Coming up with your own philosophies and ideas, evolving your own style
6. Trading decks you no longer use, evaluating progress and figuring out what does and doesn’t work for you
7. Deciding where and how far you want to go in the tarot world, perhaps setting goals, urge to make it matter
8. Practicing in your own style and cementing it, letting things percolate
9. Personal gnosis, understanding how it all works and being able to teach others
10. Making tarot a large part of your life

It's similar to the YHVH layer of Paul's system, but for me, this makes sense as a primary mode of interpretation (so far).

:) Kes
 
Links: tutorial & meaning 4 minor symbols Considering Tarot the open reading book