Deck criticism - how do we feel about it? split from: Most Under-rated Decks?

Greg Stanton said:

I'm not saying that people being deliberately mean (as opposed to critical) is good, it's just a fact of life.

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Its actually 'a fact' of the online thing, not a real life - fact; to bash someone's artwork publicly, you'd need to be entitled to it, ie. an art critic who gets published in magazines or is on tv... those are not that many.
The" internet democracy " means that everyone can say almost anything, hiding behind the username (not referring to you of course)... which of course doesn't mean that the artist has to listen to it.

Greg Stanton said:

I can't imagine any artist being so sensitive or deluded that he believes his work will and should be loved by everybody.

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There is a big difference between 'not being loved' and being bashed, really big difference.

Greg Stanton said:

So I rather doubt that people have left AT because they were offended by all the buttersquashing.

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They did, Greg - obviously you weren't around when it was happening. In my opinion some of them were not in the right and acted childishly, but whatever , i'd really like those who stayed - to continue doing so for the sake of those of us who like their artwork and who spend plenty of time on the Forum.

ETA: Wendy we crossposted

Wendywu said:

Why do people get concerned that a deck they like is criticised by others? If I like something, I like it. I don't give a toss if everyone else hates it and says so - that's their prerogative. I don't like it less because others dislike it.

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Well, its one thing if the deck is criticized - all another if the person liking it is getting criticized, i don't think anyone is entitled to that.

Wendywu said:

I'm not angry when people call me a total moron (or sneer at me, rather pityingly) for being a lifetime Trekkie fan, ever since the very first episode of the Original Series. That's up to them. I'll still be that Trekkie - and I'll shout it loud and proud . And trust me, Trekkies catch some flak when they're died in the wool, fanzine reading, middle-aged addicts.

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Its not a problem actually to criticize anyone, a reason can be always found to intimidate and bully a person if you really want to - but i think we shouldn't get on that level here, this environment should be in my opinion safer for Tarot and Oracles enthusiasts than the outer world...
I mean, if we get criticized here and called morons, the decks and artists we like get bashed - what's the reason to hang out at the Tarot Forum at all?

Wendywu said:

I just think the sneerers are missing out because they don't understand, and feel vaguely sorry for them.

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In full seriousness, Wendy, as much as i respect and like you personally and your opinions, here i disagree with you totally. I don't feel sorry for anyone because they made their choices that make them happy, why would i pitty them?
On the other hand, i don't appreciate my choices being ridiculed either, because, at least when it comes to cards, its the question of taste and not of the IQ, i won't let anyone persuade me that its NOT like that, just because they are eloquent and loud or have time to waste.

Well based on you previous post Wendy I'm assuming you might consider the attached example as being a little less warm and fuzzy than the polite discussions of your book club.


Quote......Nothing against Ciro, and I sincerely hope he has the good sense to stay away from this thread, but his decks cost a lot of money and are very short on content and depth. Think Cotton Candy, which is also addictive and rots your teeth. these decks rot your mind. It is 80's airbrush art, computer generated faces, et all. All his work looks a lot better on the monitor, and all of it looks fakey on the cards. He's not that good a Taroist, or that good an artist. His work is extremely repetitious...see one of his decks, and you've seen them all.
The Gilded was a bad joke, for star-struck newbs by a tarot newb.

I got his limited edition of "Tarot of Dreams" just before he sold out of his copies. It gathers dust. It has no depth. This one won't be any better. In Tarot you can't really just slide by on computer technique. There's no Content, no symbolism in his tarot work, just lots of women with empty faces and lots of Boobs. This next deck is just gonna be more flash, not an improvement. His recycled well of ideas will just run drier. Wouldn't you rather find that out for say, $40, instead of what? $300+?

Quote.....

I don't know what upset me more, this actual post or the obvious delight shown by others in responding to it.

There was more, but you get the point. Greg If you feel there's a role in Aeclectic for this kind of "contribution" and that its "fair game" simply because I put my work out there...then we really do have different values.

You'll note that some of the comments were directed at a deck that wasn't even finished at the time.

And the Boobs and empty faces? Well they were mainly my family who modeled... nice personal touch, don't you think?

Ironically the person who wrote this (I won't mention the name) wrote to me and apologized and asked if I could sell her another couple of copies of one of the very decks she had trashed.

cirom - that WAS in the de-enabling thread - where NOTHING said should be taken seriously. Hence the hope that you would not show up... (I remember that night all too well... )

I have SO VIOLENTLY dissed my favourite deck in that thread... MANY times ! Context is VERY relevant here.

We all (in that thread) delight in the most awful things said - the ruder the better - and as a general rule - and that was the case here - no-one believes a word of them. I think it is a rather unfair example to use. But as you know - when you later asked my opinion of the deck you were working on, I didn't dare post it on a thread, precisely because of your reaction to that post.....

I'm not sure what to say here. I do feel uncomfortable with how the thread has tension bubbling and thought I could do what I usually do - stay out of it, but I did want to give some support to where Ciro is coming from.

Hard to put into words but will do my best.

I think there are two issues being jumbled here, and that is negative criticism of a deck and negative criticism of people who perhaps have posted about a deck (or other matter relating to the tarot world - loads of sub forums here not just creation etc).

The latter I think is perhaps the worst, and yes - I do know of people who have left the forum because they have felt it was not a welcoming or warm environment. That is sad. Sometimes they may have fanned flames themselves and not realised, other times they have just felt they were on the wrong end of a personal attack.

With regards the former, I think this is the area Ciro may be most referring to? If not Ciro, I do apologise.
As a society we have become very demanding. This relates to all areas of our life, but I do feel we expect a lot, and are instantly critical if it falls below expectations. Have I been guilty of this? Heck yes, and when I am aware of it I try to check myself. If I don't my fiancee does (but in a nice way). And it is the wording I use that makes me realise I sometimes lack tact. E.g. "The latest series of Dr Who is crap compared to when...blah blah.." Hang on a minute. What suddenly made me a) a proficient enough writer to back up that judgement and b) why did I choose to use such a negatively judgemental phrase for voicing my dislike?

Those are the two things which I try to have at the back of my mind when judging. It is okay to be critical - after all I am not likely to like EVERYTHING and certainly some tarot decks do not resonate with me. However I am not in the position / do not have the right to put them down with sweeping negative comments. I do have the right to say why I don't like them, but if that is a thought out criticism it is less likely to cause offence. I guess in a nutshell it would be a good practise for each of us to just pause before we hit that submit reply button, and have one question in mind as we do a final check of our typings:

Have I explained myself fully.
Is any of this likely to cause offence to a particular individual. (Might be worth considering PM as opposed to starting a public row going - others are bound to jump in and take sides, escalating the issue)
Is my criticism a reasoned opinion or is it a mass of throw away comments that may be deemed excessively negative.

I can only apply this to myself. I am no angel. I make mistakes. I get out of my pram at times, having thrown the toys out first. But I do try to be aware of how I come across. If I get it wrong (and I have had replies showing this) I will instantly apologise.

This forum is one to share, to learn from, and to grow with. That growth can be healthy for all involved or it may falter a little along the way.

Ciro, I hope you do stay posting here. Long may your decks enhance the tarot world, and all the very best with the Oracle and its conception/birth.

Davina

That's from the De-enabling thread. The de-enabling thread the only place on the entire forum where we exaggerate or invent flaws. It's a joke thread and always has been as far back as I can recall.

I have never seen a thread where mods let personal attacks stay up except for when posters refer to others who don't see things their way as the "herd" (ie, sheep) which is a general insult but not a pointedly personal one.

Debra said:

I have never seen a thread where mods let personal attacks stay up except for when posters refer to others who don't see things their way as the "herd" (ie, sheep) which is a general insult but not a pointedly personal one.

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That's one of the things i am referring at, without wanting to bring in names and quotes; more so that i feel am i just working up myself in this thread, so i won't be posting more on the subject.
These were my exact references - and i firmly believe that nobody should qualify anyone as sheep and herd and alike because they happen to like a different tradition; i don't post my opinion on Thoth and Thoth-clones because it might sound unappreciative, i don't want to pour on other people's parade just because i might have happened to believe that the main "contribution" Crowley has done was in the domain of twisting and misinterpreting kosher Kabbalah; i am not referring to the fans as "herd" incapable or unwilling of getting (what might be in my view) the real thing - and i'd really love to be let in peace with my choice of RWS& clones as well as Faeries or whatever other choices i made.

There is an essential difference between joke threads (like the de-enabling one) and threads where people voice their genuine opinions. It isn't a matter of which tradition you prefer and not liking another tradition, but a matter of having the discrimination to know which threads are gag threads (and goodness knows the first post in EVERY de-enabling thread is a disclaimer saying exactly that: do NOT take this stuff as for real.)

Ciro, stay with us. You too, MDR.

Having been on both sides of the issue (saying something about a deck and having created a deck, now three), I have to agree that there is a line that can be crossed.

In my review of a deck or two, I have noted that Magical Forest was so cute until the critters' eyes started to look scary. Well, it's a joke when I say, Make them stop looking at me. I still bought the deck and I do still like it. And I have a personal quirk that I own that makes the Transparent Tarot not work for me, but I still think it's a cool idea. Just not for me.

I think owning my own opinion in that way doesn't cross the line. However, I'm in total agreement that insult is in the eyes of the insulted, no matter what the "sender" intended. Obviously, how insulted you get depends on, well, lots of things.

When I was posting about my first deck, one person posted how much they hated the font I used, it was the ugliest font, that I should change it, etc. Actually, that font was one of the first things I decided on, with pleasure, for my deck. I figured if that person didn't like the font and didn't buy the deck, oh well. One of the things that their very public expression of opinion did was prompt emails from the people who had ordered a copy imploring me NOT to change the font. That was satisfying at least.

It's one thing to say that a deck doesn't work for you (and I heartily agree with Ciro, sell it, trade it, give it to a deserving soul, please don't persist in torturing yourself with something that is unpleasant, if thine eye offend thee, etc). It's another thing to say that the deck represents the shallowness of the artist or whatever. Even, for instance in my case, if it's true. It's just not OK.

I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But everyone is not obligated to share it and still be considered kindly by others. It is for this same reason that bathrooms have doors. We all go. None of needs to see it.

Best wishes, to all of you.

Yes, but Marcia - the difference is that in the de-enabling thread you might have got something about people who use the family's paper recycling to turn out a trashy deck of old correspondence written in rubbish calligraphy to make an easy buck... - I can't make up the right kind of post just now; it's past my bedtime - but the point is - no-one would have taken it seriously. In fact I know it all quite often leads to deck purchases....

Oh, must agree and in fact that particular thread has been a source of delightful backfire more than once for me. Context is paramount.

gregory said:

Yes, but Marcia - the difference is that in the de-enabling thread you might have got something about people who use the family's paper recycling to turn out a trashy deck of old correspondence written in rubbish calligraphy to make an easy buck... - I can't make up the right kind of post just now; it's past my bedtime - but the point is - no-one would have taken it seriously. In fact I know it all quite often leads to deck purchases....

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