Which 'social class' are the Knights?

NatKat

Bonny said:
Hi there,

Sorry for the abstract question - just wondering if anyone has ideas on how to 'read' social class from the cards?
<<snip>>

Classical interpretations give the SUITS as representing social classes. I believe the western hermetic suit symbolism is a bastardization of Vedic social philosophy which teaches that society requires 4 classes of ppl to function:
air = servants, menials, lower classes, low ranking military, or farm workers, criminals, outcasts
fire = military - higher ranking or nobility
cups = brahmin (learned or religious leaders)
pents = traders, farmers, merchants

Otherwise, I see the knights (or princes in Thoth parlance) as being a person male or female who is still young or new in their field. Usually this is supported by age ... a 20-something just at the beginning of their career ... but maybe an older person changed careers and go a fresh start in something new ... then that older person might be a knight b/c he is NOT the owner of the company or the manager ... he is the new hire in the small office (for example).
Hope this makes sense! I have just been studying these knights myself [

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Thirteen

NatKat said:
fire = military - higher ranking or nobility
cups = brahmin (learned or religious leaders)
pents = traders, farmers, merchants

This still doesn't quite make sense to me. Air is intellect, so why is it going to menials and farmworkers? Criminals and outcasts, that I can see

The argumentative and often sneaky swords could certainly stand for rebels and those not quite in line with social conformity...but farmers?

I mean, once again, shouldn't the Air stand for scholars and writers?

If we go back to what Morwenna originally said (Swords/Air as Aristocrats) then it makes sense because (1) Aristocrats were usually the ones who were warriors and learned the fine art of battle (as compared to the foot soldiers who were often drafted for this or that war and didn't know how to do much beyond swing a club)—so, those who could swing a sword, shoot arrows, etc. (2) They were the politicians and learned diplomacy and how to mince words. (3) Depending on when we're talking, Aristocrats were the educated class—like the clergy they learned to read and write, talk philosophy, etc. And often those members of the clergy who could read/write came from aristocratic families.

I mean, I'm not arguing the point that these are the designations. If these are the historical designations, then they were the historical designations—a point of fact. I'm just saying that they don't completely make sense to me. Pents/Earth, it seems to me, ought to be the traders, farmers, laborers, craftsmen.

And Cups/Water, while certainly including the spiritual and those who might go into the religious orders, need not, IMHO, be learned. I'd also add to the Cups/Water poets and artists—some educated, some not.

Maybe?

Bonny

Thirteen said:
Bonny, given Morwenna's list, you might now get how the courts work. The four suits are kingdoms. And the King is the leader of that kingdom--the "idea" man and founder, the one who makes decisions. The Queen is the one who manages the kingdom; she keeps it running. The Knight is the fighter/defender of the kingdom, as well as it's eyes and ears. He is also a student--on the "university" level, training for the job of King/Queen. To lead or manage. The Page is the general dogsbody; he is the apprentice, starting on the job, learning the ropes of leading/managing.

So, if the suit is the "coin" suit, which I think we'd agree still stands for merchants, then the "King" of Coins is the founder of the business (say a market); he decides what they need to put out on the shelves or take off; he deals with the customers and other merchants. The Queen is in the back room, arranging for those new products to be shipped to them, ordering around the page to sweep up or something from the back room; she also manages everyone's emotions and problems. The Knight is sent out to do battle with suppliers who have raised their prices--he's going to barter with them in the King's name, and if someone tries to open a similar market down the street, he might get into a fight with them. And the Page does a little of everything, shelves the products, works behind the counter, learns the business so that one day he might run it.

So, as Morwenna said, King/Queen/Knight/Page don't signal "class" per se, but position, job and rank within the kingdom, whatever that kingdom may be.

Thanks Thirteen - I always pay close attention to your insights on the cards because it's ckear you have such deep knowledge on them.

Yes I see what you are saying here that there are particular roles within the kingdom which are shown by the king/queen/knight/page... Isn't rank the same as class though?

B

Bonny

NatKat said:
Classical interpretations give the SUITS as representing social classes. I believe the western hermetic suit symbolism is a bastardization of Vedic social philosophy which teaches that society requires 4 classes of ppl to function:
air = servants, menials, lower classes, low ranking military, or farm workers, criminals, outcasts
fire = military - higher ranking or nobility
cups = brahmin (learned or religious leaders)
pents = traders, farmers, merchants

Otherwise, I see the knights (or princes in Thoth parlance) as being a person male or female who is still young or new in their field. Usually this is supported by age ... a 20-something just at the beginning of their career ... but maybe an older person changed careers and go a fresh start in something new ... then that older person might be a knight b/c he is NOT the owner of the company or the manager ... he is the new hire in the small office (for example).
Hope this makes sense! I have just been studying these knights myself []

Interesting to consider the connection with Vedic philosophy here!

Yes I see the energy in the Knights ... Not so much the statesman or elder.

Not so much 20 something though because people change careers in the middle and later in their lives now so we don't necessarily exude that 'fresh and committed ' vibe just when we're in our younger years...myself and my beloved came up as Knights and we are both zesty in our work lives but not in our twenties ..

Bonny

Thirteen said:
This still doesn't quite make sense to me. Air is intellect, so why is it going to menials and farmworkers? Criminals and outcasts, that I can see The argumentative and often sneaky swords could certainly stand for rebels and those not quite in line with social conformity...but farmers?

I mean, once again, shouldn't the Air stand for scholars and writers?

If we go back to what Morwenna originally said (Swords/Air as Aristocrats) then it makes sense because (1) Aristocrats were usually the ones who were warriors and learned the fine art of battle (as compared to the foot soldiers who were often drafted for this or that war and didn't know how to do much beyond swing a club)—so, those who could swing a sword, shoot arrows, etc. (2) They were the politicians and learned diplomacy and how to mince words. (3) Depending on when we're talking, Aristocrats were the educated class—like the clergy they learned to read and write, talk philosophy, etc. And often those members of the clergy who could read/write came from aristocratic families.

I mean, I'm not arguing the point that these are the designations. If these are the historical designations, then they were the historical designations—a point of fact. I'm just saying that they don't completely make sense to me. Pents/Earth, it seems to me, ought to be the traders, farmers, laborers, craftsmen.

And Cups/Water, while certainly including the spiritual and those who might go into the religious orders, need not, IMHO, be learned. I'd also add to the Cups/Water poets and artists—some educated, some not.

Maybe?

Yes, I agree with you here Thirteen.
I feel uneasy actually with all of the correlations with suits etc. As you say, what about the intellectuals and poets ... Wouldn't they be in an honoured place?

Oh it's a bit confusing...
Will keep thinking on it!!

B

NatKat

Thirteen said:
This still doesn't quite make sense to me. Air is intellect, so why is it going to menials and farmworkers? Criminals and outcasts, that I can see The argumentative and often sneaky swords could certainly stand for rebels and those not quite in line with social conformity...but farmers?

Hi Thirteen,
First of all, please remember I said Western Hermetic traditions (on which Tarot might be based) seem to me as a bastardization of Vedic Philosophy ... in other words ... the Vedic teachings arrived in the West only partially and much got "lost in translation" as it were.
But let's explore your question:
Farm OWNERS = Pents (K pents) Pents generally indicate Land ownership or business
Farm Manager = Q Pents
Farm Foreman = Kn Pents
Migrant workers = swords. Like the air they have no permanent place and travel where the work is. They come and go. Here today, gone the next.

Thirteen said:
I mean, once again, shouldn't the Air stand for scholars and writers?

Yes! Let's consider this very question. Vedic Philosophy is ANCIENT. In their time the profession of "journalist" or "novelist" did not exist. Only writing was of the Brahmin caste (Water / Cups) as Priests and Ministers were the elites of that time. Writing was religious or scientific in nature and not considered as a secular activity at all! Even the idea of "science" divorced from "religion" is fairly modern. Throughout most of history science and religion were linked ... we moderns forget that Pythagoras was a RELIGIOUS & SPIRITUAL teacher in his day. Mathematics was spiritual to the ancient greeks.

So the idea of secular writing or secular science is completely absent from Vedic thought.
The first fictional novel ever written was Tales of Genji written by Lady Murasaki in 1100s. So a Japanese woman actually invented the whole idea of fiction pot-boilers for entertainment };>
This took MANY years to catch-on even in the West.

We moderns are left with assigning a SUIT to a profession which has only existed a short time in the grand scheme of things. So by all means ... let's make it swords ... makes perfect sense to me. But so does the idea of migrant works as swords.

Thirteen said:
If we go back to what Morwenna originally said (Swords/Air as Aristocrats) then it makes sense because (1) Aristocrats were usually the ones who were warriors and learned the fine art of battle ... <<snips>>

Yes, when I first leaned Tarot, I learned Swords as Military. When I studied Vedic Astrology and saw the Military as Fire (or wands in tarotology) it threw me. I pondered. I reflected. I scratched my head. Finally for some of the reasons I mention above ... I went with the Vedic method which would say the COMMANDERS are WANDS but the foot soldiers and mercenaries are Swords. Like the migrant farm workers ... the foot soldiers go where the wind blows them. Or they are mercenaries with no solid allegiance. A Wand / Fire soldier has true allegiance, loyalty, and sense of duty to his cause. The sword soldier is a mercenary or got conscripted against his will.

Yet now in our modern times ... I also put certain types of sales ppl as Wands. Realtors for example seem as wands to me. But realtors didn't exist back in the day ...

As a modern, I also assign swords to LEGAL. But as with writing ... a secular legal system did not exist back in the day. Priests dispensed justice or maybe the military nobility. Lawyers and judges and parole officers and such didn't exist then as they do now.

Thirteen said:
And Cups/Water, while certainly including the spiritual and those who might go into the religious orders, need not, IMHO, be learned. I'd also add to the Cups/Water poets and artists—some educated, some not.
Maybe?

To me, cups is the suit designation which changed the least over time. It still goes for religious, medical, teaching, service. But now also add the hospitality industry.
Now-a-days when "anyone" can get a college degree ... we do not associate religion with academic knowledge ... in fact sometimes just the opposite! Yet in Ancient times ... the clergy WERE the most educated. Whether we are talking about Ancient Egypt or Medieval Europe ... education was synonomous with the Priesthood in historic times.

Bonny said:
Yes, I agree with you here Thirteen.
I feel uneasy actually with all of the correlations with suits etc. As you say, what about the intellectuals and poets ... Wouldn't they be in an honoured place?
Oh it's a bit confusing...
Will keep thinking on it!!
B

Couldn't agree more! I have reflected on these questions for years ... and consciously chose to base some of my tarotology on Vedic Science. But also I have studied very deeply in Vedic Science so it makes sense to me in a way it may not make sense to most Westerners.

Great questions to work-out that sword-like intellect [

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