Elements of the Suits

I have a question concerning the elements related to each suit.
On this site and other sources, Wands is associated with Fire, and Pentacles with Earth. Now, when I first acquired my deck, prior to reading these sources, I had these associations switched. This was based entirely on the pictures on the court cards. The Cups and Swords cards had water and fish, and clouds and birds/butterflies, respectively. Easy.

I figured Wands as Earth, because, where there were clouds or water on the others, there were mountains here, except on the King of Wands, which had a lizard at his feet, an animal I think of as relating to Earth (I've thought since that this could represent a salamander, but the mountains are still confusing).

Pentacles, on the other hand, had no similar landmark to make me think fire (by the same token, however, there was nothing really screaming 'earth', either). However, the sky in all these cards is red and orange, while all the others are blue.

Any thoughts on this? Could it be possible that Wands are Earth and Pentacles Fire, or should I just get used to interpreting them the other way around?

On a related note, I have always thought of the elements as a group of five, namely:
Earth
Water
Air
Fire
Aether, or spirit.
By this logic, I automatically assumed that while the Minor Arcana represented the four worldly elements, the Major Arcana should represent Aether. Has anyone ever thought of this before?

(to clarify, I'm working with a Rider-Waite deck)

I've actually had the same idea of Spirit-Major! Which makes sense why everyone always says that the major represents our major spiritual path.

I think the Aether thing is out there in the old literature - can't swear to it, but pretty sure I've read it here n there.

As for the earth/fire confusion... I suppose I read which were which so never tried to decide for myself. I know that in some decks, Wands are air and Swords fire. I'm not sure of the history of it but I expect it's something like Justice being 11 or 8, and Strength 8 or 11, depending on tradition.

When I was first reading about chakras, and before I'd tuned into my own sense of them (and realised that my own sense was as good an authority as any book, a better one in fact ), I came up with various ideas and theories which don't really fit at all. Through thinking only with my Air and not my Water, as it were.

But this is different. I don't think it would matter to use them differently, except that you'd need to state that you do so every single time you refer to the suits/elements thing or explain your interpretations based on your way. People do read with all sorts of methods that work for them and no doubt some make no sense to anyone except that individual reader! You will be told there are definite rules based on the history, the way the tarot has evolved to its current form and the meanings that we use now. But plenty of readers don't stick to that.

All the time I see someone saying that a card, for them, is always this that or the other - and often I just can't see it. But that's normal among tarot readers.

... Having said all that, Pentacles as fire I just can't see. Wands as earth, sort of, but Pents as fire... they're coins, money is so material... basically my gut is saying "Scream 'Don't!'" but I can't see any actual reason to tell you to stop, so I'm not.

If you think of the pentacles as coins, then yes. But to me, a pentacle is really a symbol, and the coin is only the medium through which the symbol is presented. Swords and cups are made of metal too, after all, but their physical makeup doesn't affect our associations with the other elements.

This reminds me of a discussion I've had with a friend of mine about Tarot cards. He told me, after I had let him look through the cards, that once another person has touched my cards, they lose their divining power. I countered with something along the lines of the power comes from the symbols on the cards, rather than the cards themselves. While a Tarot deck should be treated with respect, allowing a close friend of mine to handle them should not diminish their power.

Symbolism is, to me, the driving force behind the Tarot, and to take things too literally is to miss out on what the symbol may be telling you.

So, when the pentacles are considered as symbols, I don't see why they can't represent fire. Of course, knowing the reasoning of others, I understand why they might represent earth, but having associated them with fire as I was learning to read them, making that switch feels strange. On the other hand, I don't want my interpretations to be discounted solely on the basis that I've made such an elementary mix-up (pun intended, sorry).

Not sure why any suit has to have an "element"
They are all pictures and symbolic and down to readers....its scryng basically but an elevated practice

Some confusion may have been introduced by the standard playing-card associations:

Wands have been associated with Clubs, probably due to the old names of Batons and Rods for that suit.

Cups have pretty much always been associated with Hearts, so no controversy there.

Swords have been associated with Spades by most, but some think Spades go better with Pentacles since they are used to dig in the Earth. But there are also spade-shaped sword blades.

Pentacles/Coins have been paired with Diamonds, I assume because of the origin of diamonds in the Earth and the fact of their high value.

But Clubs are black and considered negative, while Wands when associated with Fire are considered active and positive. Similarly, Spades are black and negative in expression, while Swords as Air are thought to be active and positive. Hearts are red and positive, but Cups as Water are considered passive, receptive and negative in polarity, while Diamonds are red and positive but Pentacles as Earth are described as passive and negative.

Did I mention confusing?

Some deck creators jigger the correspondences to fit their own conception of "elemental truth." I stick with the "tried and true:" Wands = Fire; Cups = Water; Swords = Air and Pentacles = Earth. If I happen to buy a deck that does otherwise, I just do the mental shift to put things back where I'm comfortable with them. If the images on the minor cards are all "wrong" I'll curse myself for not doing my homework and just not use the deck for reading.

For the Trumps, I take my cue from their astrological associations, but the idea of Spirit or Aether isn't a bad one either.

Fire is the power of transformation: wands/staff carried by Magicians

Herodotus said:

(to clarify, I'm working with a Rider-Waite deck)

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Rider-Waite, and any other deck cloned from that or relating to the Golden Dawn (pretty much) has:

Pants = Earth
Swords = Air
Wands = Fire
Cups = Water

and there is no Aether. These relate back to neo-pagan associations, which are actually not too far from relating to symbols you'll find in a lot of religions (like the sacred chalice).

Pents is Earth because the five points = the body human (hands, legs, head) and we are "dust-to-dust") earthly beings. What is more of "earth" than a human being, created, so myths often say, from dust or earth or clay? So Pentacles are symbolically about the human body, and literally relate to our bodies--our physical selves, as well as our earthly concerns (material goods).

Swords and Wands are often interchanged. Some think Swords should be fire/Wands air, but the majority of tarot readers go along with Wands as Fire and Swords as Air. Swords are Air because in pagan magic, the knife "cuts" the air between worlds. It also relates to the simple idea of Swords as standing in for words in fights. You fight with words, you fight with swords.

Wands are fire because they are emblems of transformation. In a lot of mythology, the magician carries a stick or staff that can transform (like Moses in the bible throwing down a staff that turns into a serpent). Fire is considered the "transforming" element. Not only in transforming wood to ash to smoke, but also water to steam, iron to steel. Heat anything and you transform it. So wands, which are symbols of transformation (being in the hands of magicians who use them to transform) are "fire" the element; element of transformation. Lizards (reptiles in general by the way) are considered fire animals as they are typically found in hot climates--or more to the point, are cold blooded and need heat to move around. And, yes, that is a salamander there in the King/Wands card--which, mythically speaking, was supposed to live in fire.

And I don't see any mountains in the background of the King/wands. I do see a desert like rocky background, in tune with a hot landscape. I also see lions as well as lizards on his throne, indicating, again, fire, as Leo is astrologically the "sun" and, again, the element of fire. He also wears red (fire) and the Queen of Wands in sunny yellow holds a Sunflower (fire). The "mountains" in her card look more like sand dunes (desert) and, again, there are lions. I'm curious to know how you got Earth from that compared King/Pentacles "grape robes" and bull (Taurus) throne (earth), and the Queen/Pents being in a meadow with flowers and mountains? Why did you see these as less earthy than the barren landscapes behind the Wands King/Queen?

And Cups are, well, Cups, and most people agree that any drinking vessel, be it of wood, horn, stone or metal, holds liquids and therefore relates to water.

Now, you don't need to stick to these, but if you really need to be aware that these are the assigned elements for the RWS suits, and as 90% of the decks out there are RWS clones, 90% of them have the same assignments. The other 10% will switch Swords/Wands, and a very, very, VERY tiny percent might have other assignments. What this essentially means is that you can see and read wands as earth if you want to--it's your deck, your readings. But in discussions with other readers, it's going to be a little like using the word "dog" for "cat." You'll say, "my dog climbed a tree yesterday and I had to call the fire department to get her down..." And most people will just be confused.

Barleywine said:

Some confusion may have been introduced by the standard playing-card associations:

Wands have been associated with Clubs, probably due to the old names of Batons and Rods for that suit.

Cups have pretty much always been associated with Hearts, so no controversy there.

Swords have been associated with Spades by most, but some think Spades go better with Pentacles since they are used to dig in the Earth. But there are also spade-shaped sword blades.

Pentacles/Coins have been paired with Diamonds, I assume because of the origin of diamonds in the Earth and the fact of their high value.

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There are several different French to Latin Suit correspondences, the two most common in occult as tradition are those that :

1. attribute diamonds with batons and clubs with deniers that appears to be rooted in the speculations of Gebelin/Mellet and popularized by Etteilla.

According to De Mellet (and followed by Etteilla) :

V Comparison of these Attributes with the values assigned to modern Cards for the purpose of divination.


Our Tellers of good-fortune not knowing how to read Hieroglyphics, withdrew all the images and changed the names of cups, batons, denier & swords, while understanding neither the etymology nor the expression; substituting hearts, diamonds, clubs & spades. But they retained certain turnings & several expressions by which we can retrace the origin of their divinatory meanings to the original suits. According to them, the Hearts (Cups) announce happiness. The Clubs (Denier) fortune. Spades (Swords) misfortune. Diamonds [note that in the symbolic writing system of the Egyptians diamond squares represent the countryside ] (Batons) indifference & the countryside...

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2. attribute diamonds with coins and clubs with batons.

In terms of naming and gaming conventions what makes most sense to me is*:

Spades as Swords
Clubs as Batons
Heart as Cups
Diamonds as Coins

For example in the game Hombre there is the reversal of order between red and black suits, reflecting the reversal of order between Latin long (Swords/Batons) and short (Cups/Coins) suits; and the Ace of Clubs is called 'Baste' (club) and the Ace of Spades 'Espadille' (sword).

In English too the name Spades is probably rooted in Spadille (sword)* and 'Club' is a translation of 'Baste/Baton'.

The earliest direct attribution of elements to card suits I think is still from La Signification de l’ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique (1582) by Jean Gosselin:

quote:
“Firstly, it will be seen, that in a common pack of cards there are four types of characters: which are Tiles, Clovers, Hearts and Pikes. These show us the four Elements, of which all natural things are composed…
— The Tiles, [Diamonds] which are depicted on the cards, signify the earth: for just as the earth sustains all heavy things, so the tiles are used to bear the heavy things placed on top of them.
— The Clovers, [Clubs] which are depicted on the cards, represent water: for the reason that the clover is an herb that flourishes in moist places, and is nourished by means of the water that makes it grow.
— The Hearts, which are depicted on the cards, signifies to us air: since our hearts could not live without air.
— The Pikes, [Spades] which are depicted on the cards, represents to us fire: for just as fire is the most penetrating of the Elements, so the Pikes are very penetrating weapons of war; and with each of the above-said characters are marked thirteen cards in a deck, which gives the sum of fifty-two cards.”
(Translated by Ross Caldwell; quoted from Franco Pratesi in Jean-Marie Lhôte, Dictionnaire des jeux de Société, note 18 page 652.)

Kwaw

*However, while these make sense in terms of naming and gaming conventions, Mellet's reasoning was based on the Divinatory Meanings of the playing cards (which were probably based on Etteilla's book on divination with playing cards!), so you are most likely to find that the DM's for example of Coins, most often match up with those of Clubs (Trefle/Clover). The DM's of the pip cards are rooted in Etteilla's playing card DM's, which Etteilla later converted to the Latin suits following Mellet's conversion between the two.

*"1. E. sp. espadilla „diminutif de spada, epee, le pique etant marque par une epee sur les cartes espagnoles".

Herodotus said:

Any thoughts on this? Could it be possible that Wands are Earth and Pentacles Fire, or should I just get used to interpreting them the other way around?

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Etteilla used Batons as Earth, Swords as Air, Cups as Water and Coins as Fire -- so if these associations make more sense to you then maybe an Etteilla style deck would suit you better?

If a deck is designed with elements in mind, I prefer to stick with what the designers had in mind -- the elemental associations in the RWS and clones seem pretty clear to me (as per Thirteen's post above).

I'm beginning to understand more, now. Thanks for all the replies, it's a big help. I especially appreciate the notice that wands signify transformation, which makes sense. Like I said, I understand why pentacles would be earth, but I was having trouble seeing why wands should be associated with fire.

And, now that I'm looking at my deck again, I do see mountains in the pentacles cards. I suppose I didn't notice them before amidst the relatively crowded landscape compared to the "mountains" in the barren landscapes of the wands.

I don't really want to go against the meanings agreed upon by the majority. As I said, I made these associations before learning that elements had already been assigned, and, like relearning any ingrained technique, it's just difficult for me to make the shift. But, as I learn more and more, it's becoming easier, and again, I appreciate all the help.

I think the elements are actually very important. It's an aid in understanding the cards for me, because I've given the elements a great deal of thought long before I was ever interested in the Tarot.

And I will continue to associate the Majors with Aether, because Aether is considered among the Classical elements as the material that made up the heavenly spheres in which the stars and planets were contained; an element that is separate from the other four, yet contains them all at once. Because there is a complete set of cards separate from the other suits, yet still an integral part of the deck, it only makes sense to me. The Magician, as the Ace of the Major Arcana, so to speak, even holds all four of the worldly elements on his table! In fact, I've thought this way about the elements for so long that, if there weren't five separate "suits", I would never have thought to make the elemental associations in the first place.

In other words, I intend on re-interpreting the four suits of the Minor Arcana as has been put forth by the majority, but, whether the intent was there in their making or not, I will continue to interpret the Major Arcana as belonging to Aether. It makes too much sense for me to do otherwise.