Elements of the Suits

[kwaw]

For example in the game Hombre there is the reversal of order between red and black suits, reflecting the reversal of order between Latin long (Swords/Batons) and short (Cups/Coins) suits; and the Ace of Clubs is called 'Baste' (club) and the Ace of Spades 'Espadille' (sword).

In English too the name Spades is probably rooted in Spadille (sword)* and 'Club' is a translation of 'Baste/Baton'.


*"1. E. sp. espadilla „diminutif de spada, epee, le pique etant marque par une epee sur les cartes espagnoles".

In Portuguese French suit names are also derived from those of Spanish decks. Thus the French suit of coeurs (Hearts) is called Copas (cups), with variations "taça" (cups) and "coração" (hearts). The French suit of carreaux is called Ouros (gold), but also "losango" (diamond shape, lozenge) or "diamante" (diamonds), or, informally, "balãozinho" (little balloons) and "Doce de Leite" (sweet (condensed) milk). The French suit of piques is called Espadas (swords), with variations "espadilha" (sprat), "seta" (arrow), "lança" (spear), or informally, "punhal"(dagger) or "coração negro" (black heart). Trèfles are called "Paus" (club, wood, stick, penis), also "trevo" (clover) or "pé de pinto" (standing chick (col. prick, cock, penis)).

The most common elemental attributions in Portuguese cartomancy are:

COPAS Cups - Hearts - WATER
PAUS Sticks - Clubs FIRE
OUROS Coins - Diamonds EARTH
ESPADAS Swords - Spades AIR

 

[Thirteen]

About Swords & Air...

Throwing this out as a further observation...I think the other thing we all have to keep in mind is how the deck creators thought--their point of view, as we moderns sometimes take things too literally (i've certainly been guilty of that). For example, many argue that Swords should be fire because they're heated in fire to create. While "air" people argue that swords swish through the air, and cut like words.

But you really have to think what a sword would symbolize back in medieval times. If we moderns were picking a symbol for intellect and communications (Air), we'd probably go for a cellphone. It would be the most obvious symbol for us. What would be obvious to bored, medieval aristocrats creating a card game? Well, swords were not in the hands of everyone and anyone in those days. Going back to when the person banishing a sword was the one you listened to, swords were usually only owned and worn by nobles with some authority (including the ones you went to for justice--and who could literally cut off the heads of those who they judged in the wrong). Also, most of these nobles were illiterate. They needed to know how to fight and dance and rule, not read and write. Writing was left to the religious folk and scribes who kept records. Messages came verbally or by someone bringing some symbolic item (like a rich gift to show fealty).

When it came to sending important messages, rulers sent trusted nobles wearing swords to be their mouthpieces. The tradition of diplomats and ambassadors wearing swords (at least when meeting foreign leaders) lasted up till WWI. In fact, John Adams, a founding father of the U.S. and eventual president, wore a sword when presented to the King of France and later England when he was sent to those countries as an ambassador. This man didn't know how to use a sword--he was a gentleman farmer and lawyer. But the sword was emblematic of something important.

It symbolized (1) that he had the power to pass on messages from his government. (2) That he was allowed to verbally fight for his government. (3) It symbolized that he was well informed, in the know about the issues he was going to have to discuss. (4) It indicated that his government thought him intellectually sharp enough to change tactics, to defend and fight for them if he got new information. He wasn't simply a messenger boy with memorized communications; his words had all the weight of his government behind them.

Now, just to add, there are equally good arguments for swords as fire. But if we're thinking of medieval times, then you can see how swords might get connected to the element of "air" (words, communications), and become a symbol of that in art and in a card game. Illiterate as many nobles were, they wouldn't have thought of pen & paper to indicate words/communication. But they might easily have thought of how everyone listens to the person wearing the sword; of how such a person was "in the know" and authorized to debate and decide.

 

[Tanga]

Decide what you like and stick to it. (as you are doing)

Over time (and as you have seen from contributors here) different elements were assigned to different suits according to the in-house ideas/philosophies.
Tehueti (Mary K Greer) just pointed out to me recently, that in her book "21 ways to read a tarot card" - there's a list of these varying correspondences in Appendix C.

here are some of them:-
Gardinarian Wicca (1940s -):
Wands Air
Cups Water
Swords Fire
Pents Earth

Picard/Spanish (1909):
Wands Fire
Cups Air
Swords Water
Pents Earth

Willian Blake (1757 -):
Wands Earth
Cups Fire
Swords Air
Pents Water

I personally follow the Golden Dawn format - because that's what I originally was taught - before I really though about these things.
Sometimes - I think of the Majors as Aether (or Quintessence - the "pure air that the Gods breath" ).

...

 

[MandMaud]

I'm learning a lot here too, esp. the reasoning Thirteen gives about swords as cellphones! I love playing with meanings and reasons and associations, and it's so enriching to do so.

Symbolism is, to me, the driving force behind the Tarot, and to take things too literally is to miss out on what the symbol may be telling you.

I don't *think* I was taking things particularly literally, but I can't break my own mental association with coins. Because they're round, not because they're metal! And coins speak of materialism.

My general drift was in fact that there's no reason to change the way that works for you (though as Thirteen points out, like dog/cat, it will complicate discussion with other people). Then I added that I'd have as much trouble flipping my thoughts round to your way as you would (or will, if you decide to try) flipping yours round to the more common way.

So, when the pentacles are considered as symbols, I don't see why they can't represent fire. Of course, knowing the reasoning of others, I understand why they might represent earth, but having associated them with fire as I was learning to read them, making that switch feels strange. On the other hand, I don't want my interpretations to be discounted solely on the basis that I've made such an elementary mix-up (pun intended, sorry).

I don't think your interpretations would be discounted, just that you'd need to make it clear every single time that this is how you use the suits. When reading for others, though, we don't have to say exactly which feature leads us to which conclusion. My own readings often waffle on from one idea to another, and while I'm sure someone could join most of the thoughts up with the card or specific detail on a card that set off each idea, I've never been asked to elaborate to that level.

ETA: Just remembered - although the coins thing is largely how I connect Pents with earth, most of the time Pents make me think of the body, our physical aspect. Which does confuse people, often!

 

[ravenest]

Decide what you like and stick to it. (as you are doing)

Over time (and as you have seen from contributors here) different elements were assigned to different suits according to the in-house ideas/philosophies.
Tehueti (Mary K Greer) just pointed out to me recently, that in her book "21 ways to read a tarot card" - there's a list of these varying correspondences in Appendix C.

here are some of them:-
Gardinarian Wicca (1940s -):
Wands Air
Cups Water
Swords Fire
Pents Earth

Picard/Spanish (1909):
Wands Fire
Cups Air
Swords Water
Pets Earth

Willian Blake (1757 -):
Wands Earth
Cups Fire
Swords Air
Pents Water

I personally follow the Golden Dawn format - because that's what I originally was taught - before I really though about these things.
Sometimes - I think of the Majors as Aether (or Quintessence - the "pure air that the Gods breath" ).

...

WilliaM Blake ? Where did you get that from ? .... interesting !

 

[Tanga]

WilliaM Blake ? Where did you get that from ? .... interesting !

From inside Appendix C of "21 ways to read a tarot card".
Apparently Ed Buryn used William Blake's correspondences and art, in creating the 'William Blake Tarot of the Creative Imagination'.

 

[Ruby Jewel]

I'm beginning to understand more, now. Thanks for all the replies, it's a big help. I especially appreciate the notice that wands signify transformation, which makes sense. Like I said, I understand why pentacles would be earth, but I was having trouble seeing why wands should be associated with fire.

And, now that I'm looking at my deck again, I do see mountains in the pentacles cards. I suppose I didn't notice them before amidst the relatively crowded landscape compared to the "mountains" in the barren landscapes of the wands.

I don't really want to go against the meanings agreed upon by the majority. As I said, I made these associations before learning that elements had already been assigned, and, like relearning any ingrained technique, it's just difficult for me to make the shift. But, as I learn more and more, it's becoming easier, and again, I appreciate all the help.

I think the elements are actually very important. It's an aid in understanding the cards for me, because I've given the elements a great deal of thought long before I was ever interested in the Tarot.

And I will continue to associate the Majors with Aether, because Aether is considered among the Classical elements as the material that made up the heavenly spheres in which the stars and planets were contained; an element that is separate from the other four, yet contains them all at once. Because there is a complete set of cards separate from the other suits, yet still an integral part of the deck, it only makes sense to me. The Magician, as the Ace of the Major Arcana, so to speak, even holds all four of the worldly elements on his table! In fact, I've thought this way about the elements for so long that, if there weren't five separate "suits", I would never have thought to make the elemental associations in the first place.

In other words, I intend on re-interpreting the four suits of the Minor Arcana as has been put forth by the majority, but, whether the intent was there in their making or not, I will continue to interpret the Major Arcana as belonging to Aether. It makes too much sense for me to do otherwise.

A lot of interesting comments here and I don't have much to add except that The Queen of Pentacles and the Empress....Taurus and Venus......are not only materialistic, but also "magical"....as is the Earth and gardens that grow from it, so there is nothing mundane in Pentacles even though they indicate "materialistic" implications. I think understanding the elements from an astrological perspective helps one relate to the elements....which are then applied to the cards. Since Fire is about transformation and Earth is the ultimate transformer when you consider the "acorn".... the differentiating aspect seems to be the spirituality of fire and the magic of earth......one fits into a flower pot and with a little water, produces a beautiful plant while the other bursts into transformational flames with the element of air. Without water, earth loses its magic; and without air fire dies. I see fire and air as intelligence and earth and water as compassion. For me, the symbols used to indicate the element only give us a way of relating them to each other. If the water signs were Pentacles and the earth signs were Cups.....would it really matter? Same with Swords as fire and Fire as swords.....it is just nomenclature, and as long as you understand the qualities behind the symbols, call them what you will.

 

[MandMaud]

A lot of interesting comments here and I don't have much to add except that The Queen of Pentacles and the Empress....Taurus and Venus......are not only materialistic, but also "magical"....as is the Earth and gardens that grow from it, so there is nothing mundane in Pentacles even though they indicate "materialistic" implications.

That's a new way (for me) of seeing earth, and a useful one! Then when you think about it, money itself can be pretty magical: think the Gnomes of Zurich or ask any City whiz kid! Hm...

 

[Ruby Jewel]

That's a new way (for me) of seeing earth, and a useful one! Then when you think about it, money itself can be pretty magical: think the Gnomes of Zurich or ask any City whiz kid! Hm...

Hi....may I call you Maud? It was my grandmother's name........so, Maud, it seems to me that everything in this world, on this planet, and out there in the infinite universe is nothing but pure magic.....and then there's you and me......OMG how utterly wondrous it all is and here we are connecting to all that magic through the imagination stimulated by the tarot. The fact that we can even conjure up the concept of "money" and use it like a sword that can cut through poverty when it is put to work for good.....or bury us in tragedy.....the mere thought that we can create any of this is beyond explanation. I'm really happy to know that what I had to say was meaningful to you.....yes, there is magic in money as well.....especially when it is used in the world rather than horded.

 

[MandMaud]

Hi....may I call you Maud? It was my grandmother's name........so, Maud, it seems to me that everything in this world, on this planet, and out there in the infinite universe is nothing but pure magic.....and then there's you and me......OMG how utterly wondrous it all is and here we are connecting to all that magic through the imagination stimulated by the tarot. The fact that we can even conjure up the concept of "money" and use it like a sword that can cut through poverty when it is put to work for good.....or bury us in tragedy.....the mere thought that we can create any of this is beyond explanation. I'm really happy to know that what I had to say was meaningful to you.....yes, there is magic in money as well.....especially when it is used in the world rather than horded.

You're inspiring!

"Use it like a sword" - did you do that on purpose too?

"can cut through poverty when it is put to work for good.....or bury us in tragedy" - I often say, magic and electricity and fire and eloquence, and any other kind of power, are not good or bad in themselves, it's all in how they're wielded!

Of course you can call me Maud, lots here do. It was my great-grandmother's middle name, that's why I chose it as my "middle" name for my spiritual online identity. She died long before I was born, but I heard about her and always felt a connection with her; my gran (her daughter) said I was like her.