The lovers - a backside?

Krystophe said:

Flames, this is brilliant! Your post, while not a direct response to me, is a perfect expression of the energy I understand this card to symbolize. "The weight of the thing" is a phrase that will most certainly stay with me.

Although I'm not the original poster of this thread, I'd like to thank you for such an enlightening response!

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You're very welcome! I'm glad I could help.

This is a great thread. I always learn so much from everyone!! So, thanks to you, as well.

Barleywine said:

And then there is the story of blues-music icon Robert Johnson selling his soul to the Devil at a crossroads in order to be able to master the guitar.

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I think you'll appreciate this poem, Barleywine. I thought of it when I read your post.

The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Flames said:

I think you'll appreciate this poem, Barleywine. I thought of it when I read your post.

The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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For sure. This is the one I linked in my earlier post.

Barleywine said:

For sure. This is the one I linked in my earlier post.

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Wow, I completely missed that!! How synchronous and apropos the cruciform...

Thanks for all the replies So interesting and fascinating to read.

Padma said:

Well, The Lovers doesn't indicate the choice will be *good* or even logical - just that there will be one!

Also, your comments made me think of the old representations of the Lovers card in the Marseilles-type deck - usually a man trying to choose between two women, with a cupid floating over head with a bow and arrow. So if A chose B instead of C, clearly B and C could be seen as those two women in that card. I find today's versions, though much more attractive artistically, often miss this distinction of having two people to chose from...

Anyways, I can see why it comes up as it does for you, just based on that paragraph of yours and the old Lovers card.

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Yeah, I remember that lovers card and it sometimes seems to relate more to how the card shows up in my readings even if I dont use the deck
There are situations too in which two people could have been together if it wasnt for another person. So if A likes both person B and C (yes, very simplicit), and decides they want B more, C is ruled out BECAUSE of the choice and third party in itself and could explain why the lovers would show up for this person. Otherwise they would be the one.
Even though in my mind person B "should" be the one to get the lovers card since they were the chosen one. But person B would be chosen because of any other factor that makes person A like them more.
Uhm, maybe this doesnt make sense at all hehe.

Barleywine said:

I like to think of the Lovers as a "crossroads," a meeting-place where the participants either link up and go hand-in-hand down the same fork, or fail to connect and have a "parting of the ways." The Lovers is about that experience and the choice it implies; the cards surrounding it would indicate which way the decision is likely to play out.

For example:

The Lovers + the Tower = the worst blind date you ever had (or maybe the best sex).
The Lovers + the Moon = one isn't being entirely honest with the other.
The Lovers + the Hanged Man = . . . and you wondered why he/she didn't call.

I'm sure you can come up with numerous other match-ups.

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I agree to this. Lovers can be about choosing not to be with them. But then it needs an extra card to say this as I would assume most people would think lovers is a positive for that person.

Krystophe said:

I don't want to nitpick, but I've never been a fan of the word "choice" in interpreting the energy of the Lovers, mainly because I've seen it reduced too often by well-meaning readers to a much more shallow level than I think is indicated by the card (think of choosing which appetizer to order with your dinner, or choosing which movie to watch on Netflix).

I prefer the word "commitment." The element of choosing among possibilities is still there, but this choice is made from a very deep place, has ramifications that go far beyond the gratification of the moment, and requires ongoing effort to maintain. Keeping all this in mind has certainly helped me greatly in my understanding of the energy represented by this card, particularly when it appears badly aspected or in a negative position.

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I love this. This makes sense. Commitment.

Flames said:

Speaking of crossroads...

Yesterday, I was watching a movie and some of it was with English subtitles. When it came to the word 'crossroads', I noticed the character had said, "Crucifixo' - which means Crucifix or Cross. Where two points meet, we get a cross - or a burden - to bear. That's how I see the Lovers Card. You're literally standing at that point where the two pieces of wood (or whatever) meet or intersect. There's a heaviness in the mix, a real sense of gravity about the situation. What do you do at this 'point'? That seems to be the question or one I've asked myself when the Lovers shows up. Without getting too religious, but it's where 'father' and 'son' connect with the 'holy spirit', or where flesh and spirit dwell as one. It's as if anything and everything else pales in comparison. You feel 'stuck', unable to move. Though 'choice' is very much connected to this card, it sometimes feels as though you're not 'able' to make a choice - between this or that thing. Sometimes, it feels as though that's not even the 'point' (no pun intended).

Standing at that crossroads or bearing the cross, to me, IS what the Lovers card is all about. It's feeling the weight of that thing knowing you may or may not go for or get what your heart desires. Sometimes, it's not about what we want but about what's 'right'. I think it's in that space where we discover who we really are and what an 'other' means to us.

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Thank you for this. It is what happens during, not after in a way. Since the chariot comes after the lovers here is it that the chose was made. But then the lovers becomes more complex than just a choice. And yes I agree, sometimes at those points are where we find out who we are and learn more about ourselves..

Saskia said:

I don't think the Lovers is a choice as in a selection or mechanically pick an option.

It's more of a decision to do something/live according to what truly resonates with your core (or soul). I think the Lovers is a magnetic pull that draws the querent towards something, be it a thought, belief, value framework, person, situation or job. It's "falling in love" with something or someone because it simply feels right, fits the best, resonates the most.

However, this doesn't mean that the gut feeling is always correct and that's why the Devil is associated with the Lovers. Is the magnetic pull born from egoistic reasons, such as fear, lust, selfishness, codependency, pride etc.? If yes, it's more about the Devil than the authentic, genuine Lovers.

In relationships, this card doesn't necessarily promise happily ever after, because it can mean for example:
- one person being sure about the decision but the other one not
- the pair having to decide whether it's really authentic or born from selfish reasons
- the pair acknowledging that the magnetic pull is there, but they can't make it work in practice for myriads of reasons.

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I once did a choice I was terrified to take, but my heart and gut feeling said GO! haha
In retrospect I know it was the right choice, but it doesnt mean I didnt get challenges from it. In a way I think the right choice was the most challenging one. But it made me grow. So the difference between the right choices and the most wanted choice.. I can see the devil in a way too.

Flames said:

I think you'll appreciate this poem, Barleywine. I thought of it when I read your post.

The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Thanks for posting this