A non-esoteric view of tarot

Novbert

moderndayruth said:
Dare i say that i doubt you read those words at AT?

My point is that people use tarot for predicting the future and get surprised, angry, disappointed, when the future doesn't turn out the way the cards "told". (like here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=140096)

moderndayruth said:
What exactly is "mumbo-jumbo" to you?

Everything without scientific evidence. Haha, okay, I know it's the worst place to say such thing but hell, I'm an engineer, so leave me alone with undetectable energy fields, chakras and all that stuff. As I see tarot is still a marvellous thing without all that hocus-pocus.

moderndayruth said:
What you describe is NOT reading Tarot. Could be cold reading, could be people reading, but it is not Tarot reading.

Well then, our opinions differ.

moderndayruth said:
And for how long is it that you read Tarot?

I don't really see how that is relevant when discussing the similarities between tarot reading and projective techniques.

moderndayruth said:
So i should let go my convictions, that have worked perfectly for me and my sitters for over a decade and substitute them with yours... because you say so, right?

As Le Fanu said: Every single card is relevant for every single moment of our lives. Randomness doesn't actually takes away anything from tarot. The pure fact that you and many others have been workin with this randomness only proves that the actual cards doesn't matter - or that ANY of them can say something useful in ANY situation.

moderndayruth said:
Based on this, i shall presume that you are not at all familiar with what Tarot reading is, as a process.

I'd be really curious how you'd explain what happens during a tarot reading to a psychologist, using psychological terms. I don't see how you could argue against the psychological aspects of tarot - what I see is that you simply refuse to think about tarot that way. The fact that you're not aware of that or you do it instinctually doesn't mean it's not there.

moderndayruth said:
Because it works.
Go to your readings subforum or to any of the exchanges subforum and you'll see for yourself.

Check the video I've posted. That worked too.

moderndayruth said:
I find it plain stupid to join a Tarot enthusiast community and straightaway claim the community's practice - plain stupid, but to each their own.
I hope you'll stick with us, you might change your opinions.

Okay, I'm harsh sometime, but I'm too stubborn to change what already has written. I don't think harshness is bad. In fact I could say: "I don't believe works" - or something like that, but I don't think it would have the same effect

And I'll definitely stick to you - I'm just at the beginning of my journey!

Mycroft

Thanks for posting this Novbert, I'm in almost complete agreement with the proposition that a Tarot reading is a Rorschach test, which relies on the skill of the practitioner to 'read' the responses from a querent.

However, there a couple of things which I believe also have to be taken into account. The first is the 'self-fulfilling prophecy' where an individual (often unconsciously) causes a reading to 'come true'. The second is the more mysterious principle of synchronicity, such as the same card being repeatedly drawn for someone in multiple readings. How we interpret such co-incidences depends on our view of the world, but does not alter the fact that co-incidence can be a powerful factor in motivating people into action and change.

I am also in complete agreement with Le Fanu's points, but I would say that if someone 'maps' a personality onto a deck of cards or an animal, then that is very real for them, because it exists in their head, and in order to appreciate why they feel that way we would have to 'enter their reality' as they say in NLP.

For me personally the 'esoteric mumbo-jumbo' only begins to apply when you are meditating on the cards or doing dreamwork with them, because the cards internal structure and symbolism are then being acted upon by the unconscious mind which is better able to process the esoteric knowledge, where as the conscious mind is usually left completely baffled by it.

Personally I find it fascinating reading threads which deal with the more traditional aspects of reading, because it is always useful to challenge our belief systems and see what new things we can discover (often in the most unlikely of places!) But I am pleased to see someone prepared to 'challenge the orthodoxy' on the forum because a broad church requires a varied set of viewpoints if it is to survive.

moderndayruth

Alta said:
We have to be a little careful about developing group-think and allow other views to be expressed and replied to thoughtfully.

True!

I must say that i would really love to hear more of Novbert's reasoning, as it seems he started reading quite recently - in a post dating a week ago he says he is still not familiar with the traditional meanings of the cards, so i was surprised how come such a firm opinion in such a brief time?
Or maybe that's the reason, because he just read intuitively and presumed everyone does?
Btw, my mother is from those parts - since when you are living in Hungary, Novbert? (I'd say that you are a native speaker, no?)
Are you familiar with Gypsy Fortunes, which is the most spread deck of cards in Hungary?
Its an oracle, but still, so far everyone from that area who joined AT, myself included, got to Tarot through oracles first, so there might be some interference too...
Anyway, looking forward to reading more posts by you asap!

moderndayruth

Thanks for the reply!

Novbert said:
I'd be really curious how you'd explain what happens during a tarot reading to a psychologist, using psychological terms. I don't see how you could argue against the psychological aspects of tarot - what I see is that you simply refuse to think about tarot that way. The fact that you're not aware of that or you do it instinctually doesn't mean it's not there.

Hmm, why would you explain anything to a psychologist, unless you are paid for it or are held against your will in a psychiatric ward?

ETA: ohh, and just to add, i'd use Jungian approach to explain it all to a psychologist - if i was paid for that.

Novbert said:
And I'll definitely stick to you - I'm just at the beginning of my journey!

Ohh, i meant us as a community, not me personally

Enjoy!

Novbert said:
My point is that people use tarot for predicting the future and get surprised, angry, disappointed, when the future doesn't turn out the way the cards "told". (like here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=140096)

Interesting that as a new poster you'd remember an oldish thread...

Anyway, i don't see it as anyone getting angry and disappointed, YR is a learning subforum, and members seek to get better understanding of their readings there, that's all.

Barleywine

moderndayruth said:
i'd use Jungian approach to explain it all to a psychologist

Forgot to mention in my post that Jung was the "poster-boy" for the psychological movement in late 20th-century tarot and astrology: the "conscious/unconscious" interplay and the process of individuation. Universal archetypes (seated in the collective unconscious - and frequently cross-connected to tarot symbolism) and synchronicity loomed large in the mix as well.

Side note: I too was an engineer before I detoured into management. We managers believed (at least for a while) that "Myers-Briggs - 'R' - Us"

Amanda

Novbert said:
This phenomenon is known by psychologists for decades - it is used in projective tests like in Rorschach test and such. In those tests random and unstructured images are presented to the viewer and she is asked to find meaning in those images, to describe them. The theory is that the viewer will project the current state of her psyche onto those unstructured images, thus her response on the image tells more about herself than about the image.

As I see tarot works very similarly. What you get in a spread is pretty much random - even if you're convinced that it's not. The only reason that you find a spread meaningful for yourself and your situation is because you project your situation onto those cards. (another person would probably interpret the very same set of cards in the very same spread totally differently - and you both would be right!) Of course believing that the cards aren't random, but relevant for the situation because of the <random esoteric expalantion> actually helps the process of projection because it makes the reader unaware of the fact that she's actually projecting.

I'm curious to know your psychological reasoning on why, in a group of tarot readers who did not consult with each other but were reading for the same anonymous person, 2 of the same cards appeared 2 times between at least 2 of them in a 6 card spread?

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=156340&page=5

Novbert

moderndayruth said:
True!

I must say that i would really love to hear more of Novbert's reasoning, as it seems he started reading quite recently - in a post dating a week ago he says he is still not familiar with the traditional meanings of the cards, so i was surprised how come such a firm opinion in such a brief time?
Or maybe that's the reason, because he just read intuitively and presumed everyone does?
Btw, my mother is from those parts - since when you are living in Hungary, Novbert? (I'd say that you are a native speaker, no?)
Are you familiar with Gypsy Fortunes, which is the most spread deck of cards in Hungary?
Its an oracle, but still, so far everyone from that area who joined AT, myself included, got to Tarot through oracles first, so there might be some interference too...
Anyway, looking forward to reading more posts by you asap!

Yeah, I've started recently, yet as I see tarot is basically very very simple. Of course you can say: "Hey, it's complex as hell! People write books on only a single aspect of it." That's true, but on a basic level it's just about assigning information to cards based on a very limited set of rules. Lots of cards - lots of information. But lots of information doesn't necessarily means complexity. Okay, it's also complex - because you can assign a whole lot of layers of information to a single card, discover interconnections and relations between them, but it's still not complex. At least not in a way quantum physics is complex. Maybe I'll learn more about it and change my opinion but that's how I see it now.

To answer your question I was born in Hungary and I live here ever since, so yes, I'm a native speaker, still I'm not familiar with gypsy cards - yet I've heard about them.

I'm also looking forward to more discussion

I hope my scepticism will only add to this community, not take away from it.

Anna

Novbert said:
Yeah, I've started recently, yet as I see tarot is basically very very simple. Of course you can say: "Hey, it's complex as hell! People write books on only a single aspect of it." That's true, but on a basic level it's just about assigning information to cards based on a very limited set of rules.

A lot of the so called experts talk a whole load of rubbish about Tarot. I am far more interested in the thoughts of someone approaching it with new eyes. And what you have to say is really interesting, and I in part agree with it.

There is a subtle difference between using tarot to make informed decisions about your future, and allowing tarot to make those decisions for you. Too many people do the later.

And yes, it's really very simple at it's most basic level..... and an unexplainable mystery at it's deeper levels!

What deck are you exploring? 'cos the only one really worth bothering with is the Tarot of Marseilles. The rest of the decks will have you banging your head against someone else's world view. Save yourself a lot of years of misdirection and dead ends and go straight to the good stuff from the start!

Kissa

Novbert said:
As I see tarot is still a marvellous thing without all that hocus-pocus.

great point

I personally find the "beginner" argument used by some people in this discussion quite weak. You don't need to be 50 years old or have 20 years of experience in a field to have an opinion on it. Moreover, this opinion seems to be quite well-documented but yes, of course, as any opinion, it is shamelessly biased

It is refreshening to read Novbert's post and that s/he still values/practrices/studies this wonderful tool that is tarot. I understand completely that tarot is not "just" a tool for some of us here, it is part of a wider spiritual pratice and sometimes it is a way of life.

Welcome aboard, Novbert

It's ok to be an engineer, mate, even here LOL

Kissa

ann823

So you're interested in more pychological approach? I think there is a subforum on that you might enjoy. What do the psychologists you've talked to about tarot had to say? I believe quite a few use it in their practices. I know in reading amazon reviews I have seen someone say they use tarot with their clients.

A non-esoteric view of tarot

Novbert

Mycroft

moderndayruth

moderndayruth

Barleywine

Amanda

Novbert

Anna

Kissa

ann823