The Great Tarot Controversy

Baroli

Baccus93 said:
Why did I post some of the feedback I get from seekers? Because someone up above in this thread dared say I was probably no good at my work. Well, I beg to differ - but won't beg too much. Thank you.

If a reader tells me something like "I get the feeling you've felt stifled because you have your hands full. I mean, you've had to drop some of the load and you probably didn't really want to do that - but you need to move forward with whatever you can fit on your plate to get the job done," they're looking at a five of swords picture describing Saturn in Leo, the Geburah of Yetzirah in my life. They may even go further and say, "and this has caused disharmony in your relationships, like you're leaving someone behind or they're leaving you behind. This looks like a bad deal all around." Very traditional meanings : (Regular) Defeat, loss, failure, negative thoughts and attitudes. Winning at the expense of another. Communication problems, arguments, humiliation, insensitivity. (Averse) Mourning, a funeral, distress, remorse. Clearing the air, truth at any cost. Dejection, vengeance, vindication, end of slander.

This is all very interesting. But Bacchus93 I am going to ask you a question that is often asked of us by Umbrae: Why do you read???

Baroli

Baccus93

Baroli said:
This is all very interesting. But Bacchus93 I am going to ask you a question that is often asked of us by Umbrae: Why do you read???

Baroli

Now-a-days this requires a multi-faceted answer.

1) Because now it is how I make my living.
2) Because I enjoy helping people discover the answers they are looking for in order to make informed and confident choices.

The motto for my services: I want to put the future in your hands.

Moonbow

It's interesting that what some see as controversy others see as opinion. There will always be those that prefer the WCS system, or the Thoth or Marseilles. It's true, (and obvious when reading some posts), that each of us may have a preference for a certain deck or system but I'm not reading that as controversy or a Great Tarot Controversy, just opinion and a personal connection to a deck. Which is all good.

Just as one person may prefer to use astrological and qabalistic symbolisms, another may prefer not to, or may have different correlations, and who is to say who is right or wrong in this. I think it is good to debate and listen as well as talk (or type) as none of us learn without listening to other viewpoints.

now the moderator bit, I'm moving this to Talking Tarot

Anna

Baccus93 said:
To me, if you haven't got a grasp of the basic astrological and qabalistic symbolisms behind Tarot, and therefore don't have the answer to "why is that meaning assigned to such and such card", you aren't likely very accurate.

This thread has me rather confused to be honest. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be basically saying that your way is the only right way to read tarot.

I've got no time for the Golden Dawn myself. I think they were a bunch of guys in silly robes who corrupted the essence of tarot to boost their egos.

And I am kind of offended that you think that just because a person dosn't buy all that magick with a k stuff, their readings are inacurate.

Umbrae

Baccus93 said:
Who's ego is really going to be offended when I tell you that I believe you're wrong?

Baccus93 said:
To me, if you haven't got a grasp of the basic astrological and qabalistic symbolisms behind Tarot, and therefore don't have the answer to "why is that meaning assigned to such and such card", you aren't likely very accurate.

Baccus93 said:
Then there's the argument over whether Tarot is related to the Kabbalah. The thing we have to remember is that there are two Kabbalahs (Kabbalah, Qabalah, Cabala, Halla-ba-loo: spell it as you wish, that's not my point) - there is the traditional Hebrew Kabbalah such as is practiced by the Hasidics and then there is Western Kabbalah as practiced by Hermetic Magicians. And they are not the same, although related in so many ways. It is painfully certain that Western Kabbalah and Tarot are definitely related, but not with Hebrew Kabbalah so much (which I think is the confusion).

The statement “It is painfully certain that Western Kabbalah and Tarot are definitely related”, implies a connection dating to the birth of Tarot – which waves red flags at history; and “but not with Hebrew Kabbalah so much” waves red flags towards personal study (I find them quite compatible).

So uh…Which Cow-Bell-A does one have to be versed in? Hermetic? Jewish? And Which Astrology system should we study? Sidereal or Tropical?

Or perhaps we should study syncretism? Or perhaps it is about choice. We relate to what we know.

Baccus93 said:
Here, I offer for you that doubt my quality as a reader, a brief sampling of some of the most recent comments from my clients on Kasamba.
…
It seems that the theme lately is "honest to a fault" (a recent comment left by a client on Keen - which my new callers keep quoting as their motive for choosing me yesterday and today).

Baccus93 said:
Why did I post some of the feedback I get from seekers? Because someone up above in this thread dared say I was probably no good at my work.

Try as I might – I can find nobody insulting or questioning your quality as a reader

Baroli said:
But Bacchus93 I am going to ask you a question that is often asked of us by Umbrae: Why do you read???

Baccus93 said:
1) Because now it is how I make my living.
2) Because I enjoy helping people discover the answers they are looking for in order to make informed and confident choices.

The motto for my services: I want to put the future in your hands.

Well as to your motto…

Tarotbear said:
The cards are in my hands, the future’s in yours.

Here’s what I see from where I sit. Your ego has been fractured. Perhaps good reason exists, perhaps not. The controversy – may be in your head. To imply that one must have the same background that you have in order to be accurate is just plain silly – and mondo egotistical.

I got some of the same feedback from sitters before I ever picked up a book – as have others.

CharmingPixie said:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be basically saying that your way is the only right way to read tarot.

I've got no time for the Golden Dawn myself. I think they were a bunch of guys in silly robes who corrupted the essence of tarot to boost their egos.

And I am kind of offended that you think that just because a person dosn't buy all that magick with a k stuff, their readings are inacurate.

Yup – that’s what he’s saying!

And that’s okay – tell me I’m wrong. I’m not offended. But I am amused.

Tarot is a personal journey. And when we put too much ego into our knowledge and ability – a XVI shall occur. It always follows XV.

Our Lady’s number is one hundred and fifty and six, and she takes no prisoners…

rissa

Seems to me, Bacchus, that you are sorely hoping to find controversy. The disagreements you have cited hardly seem to be "great", nor do they seem "controversial". They may be debate, but they are no more filled with self-importance or disrespect than debate about whether pie is a better dessert than cake *. I've recently undertaken Pythagorean Tarot, and while I find the system to be quite different from other tarot systems, I would never describe it as "better" Tarot...just better for me, in a lot of ways.

Deck to deck, system to system, Tarot "types" are really all the same language--just manifested in different dialects. And you "speak" with the one that comes most naturally to you. I think everyone here could agree with that point, and would never tear down another reader's system. Only you seem intent on doing so.

So sorry to disappoint, but you will not stir up an argument here, not from us. Though it seems you have stirred up some attention, and I'm sure you are satisfied with that.

*totally pie, fools.

rebecca-smiles

Baccus93 said:
I've been looking all around and I can't find any justification for this, but there seems to exist a great Tarot controversy.

"My deck is better than yours because it is more accurate." "My deck was designed by a true initiate, and so makes more sense." "Reading with this deck is better than that deck because so-and-so was wrong in his interpretations."

Then there's the argument over whether Tarot is related to the Kabbalah. The thing we have to remember is that there are two Kabbalahs (Kabbalah, Qabalah, Cabala, Halla-ba-loo: spell it as you wish, that's not my point) - there is the traditional Hebrew Kabbalah such as is practiced by the Hasidics and then there is Western Kabbalah as practiced by Hermetic Magicians. And they are not the same, although related in so many ways. It is painfully certain that Western Kabbalah and Tarot are definitely related, but not with Hebrew Kabbalah so much (which I think is the confusion).

Baccus93 said:
To me, if you haven't got a grasp of the basic astrological and qabalistic symbolisms behind Tarot, and therefore don't have the answer to "why is that meaning assigned to such and such card", you aren't likely very accurate.

First you say there is a problem in making one deck more right than another,
but then promote one way over another.

Is the controversey just in YOUR head?

(who's gonna side with me for cake?)

starrystarrynight

*raises eyebrow*
We made need to start a thread on "The Great Dessert Controversy" Talk smack about Thoth or Pythagorean and I'll live. Talk smack about key-lime....there will be a smack-down. You have offended my honour.

Ha! Note the response directly above!

p.s. to stay on track, I still wonder what brought up this question, Baccus93, when I can't see there is a controversy to begin with? Perhaps you could suggest why you see a problem/debate in this issue where no one else seems able to? Just curious, I guess. Or, again, maybe I have misread something here.

rebecca-smiles

Baccus93 said:
To me, if you haven't got a grasp of the basic astrological and qabalistic symbolisms behind Tarot, and therefore don't have the answer to "why is that meaning assigned to such and such card", you aren't likely very accurate [...] And that's the basic premise I use for my Tarot work. I've been using the method Duquette describes since 1988 when I first was introduced to the Qabalah of the Golden Dawn, even before I read Duquette's work. And that's why I study so many people's interpretations of cards, applying the Sephira/Element Planet/Sign concept to see if I can deduce how that meaning got so assigned. And it is this method, and the combination of cards (Elements comparing/contrasting Planets aspecting Signs/Qualities informing blah blah) that make for specific meanings behind the readings.

But these assignations are arbitrary are they not? there are different systems yes? so if the above is true but different decks use different systems then...

Baccus93 said:
Say out-loud "Empress" and without knowing the deck I will think "Venus, the goddess of Art and Beauty, Demeter, hearth and home, suggesting luxury and motherly warmth. She nurtures and nourishes." And it will be accurate for every deck. And my readings will accurately apply.

Baccus93 said:
ravenest appears to be suggesting that comparing the two versions of this card would bring about different meanings in the cards. My view is that a RWS based Devil or a Thoth based Devil is still an issue of enslavement - the only difference in view is the point of view of the observer and how to respond.

...does not follow very well. if you are using and promoting one way or system (attributions of Kabbalah, astro, number etc) then when you come into contact with a system that has different assignations those meanings will change, as the nature of the card has changed?

What about William G Gray's kabbalah?

I tried the GD system. i found it hard to RELATE the cards to the positions on the paths. Cards seemed to be assigned by astrological and numeralogical associations instead of the meaning of the card.

i know how dumb that sounds since these associations are meant to reflect the meaning or consist of their energies, but i mean;

thoth: emperor: aries, mars, sun exhalted, Tzaddi, sulphur...whatever.

but what about the emperor? where was he when they assigned this arcana this position on the tree? (wisdom-beauty) how is the emperor card beautifully wise? how does he embody chokma-tiphareth?

i'm not saying it is wrong, i just don't get Emperor=chokma-tiphareth (for all the astro-numerical justifications).

Gray placed the majors on the tree according to the nature of each path: what qualities did chokma-chesed (wisdom-mercy) have? what was that path like qualitatively? and what card best reflects that? the emperor: It takes wisdom and mercy to govern well, he is mercifull and wise.

Now i'm not saying this is right or better. but i do understand this, i can relate to this- move all the astro-numero gubbins aside; card and path suits me fine.

i have never worked with the other kabbalistic systems because i couldn't get past the first hurdle with them: they seemed intellectually 'heady' instead of grounded, and when i read discussions on the placements of cards there seems to be some struggle to make them fit. this system seemed natural where the GD one seemed clunky.

I bring this up because, well....i'm curious about this system and any criticisms. and since you view kabbalah as important to the tarot it seems relevant to consider why by way of comparison. how do you reconcile the need to use such systems as vital to using tarot given that systems differ so much?

(it is late and i'm not sure how coherent this is; please forgive my rookie ramblings).

Lillie

I do use the GD system. Sort of

It's just what I learned and I stuck with it.

But I could never be bothered with the caballah, or even much of the astrology. I thought it was a load of bumpf put there to distract me from the cards (Thoth, of course).

But that's just me. Other things work for other people, and who is anyone to say that they (or me, or thee) are wrong?
That would be a bit arrogant, wouldn't it?
And how can any one of us know what works for other people?

There are many roads that lead to Rome.

There is only one absolute truth, and that is that vanilla ice cream is the best, and you have to have strawberries with it.
Fact!!!

The Great Tarot Controversy

Baroli

Baccus93

Moonbow

Anna

Umbrae

rissa

rebecca-smiles

starrystarrynight

rebecca-smiles

Lillie