The Tarot symbols origin

DoctorArcanus

Cartomancer said:
The constellation theory has explained these images or icons in the Death card which are connected with the constellation Sagittarius:
A male figure (In the Death card he is a skeleton.)

Hello Cartomancer,
actually, the sex of skeletons seems to me to be as doubtful as that of angels. In Italy and France, Death is typically personified as a woman. Anyway, a skeleton is not the same as a centaur, so the constellation theory fails to explain the most distinctive feature of Death cards.

A horse with a horseman or as part of a centaur

A riding skeleton is not the same as a centaur. The constellation theory poses a new problem here. Where is this centaur in tarot Death cards?

A bow (of Sagittarius the Archer)

Sagittarius MUST have a bow, since he is “the Archer”. Death can have a bow. But, the more distinctive feature of personifications of Death (and of tarot Death card) is the presence of a skeleton or a corpse. This obvious symbolism is very ancient, pre-Christian I think.
Death's bow is possibly related to the Book of Revelation (6,2):

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him
had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth
conquering, and to conquer.

A crown in the stars of Corona Australis that is also seen at the feet of the horseman in the Death card

I guess here you are talking of the Waite-Smith tarot? This is not relevant to the origin of Tarot, since that deck is a creation of the XX Century. Actually, we KNOW that Waite derived his Death Card from the Book of Revelation: Death is represented ”by one of the apocalyptic visions”.

A scythe in the stars of Corona Australis (if you accept constellations the Sickle and Scythe)

The scythe and the sickle are related to Death, because Death is related to harvest. See for instance the Book of Revelation (14,18-19):

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power
over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp
sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the
clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully
ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and
gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great
winepress of the wrath of God.

Cartomancer said:
When was the scythe first used in the Death card? Was it before or after 1503 AD? That fact could give us an indication of if there was another star map available to the Tarot artist that has been lost, but was the inspiration for the Tarot trumps. The star chart has this name:
Die Karte des Nördlichen Sternenhimmels, Inv.-Nr. Hz 5576, Manoscritto del 1503, Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg

Here is my mock-up of the constellation Sagittarius in a 1503 star map as the Death card with a scythe. The constellation is flipped horizontally to present it from our vantage point on earth instead of the fashion at the time of presenting a plainsphere from the vantage point of God who is looking in from beyond. This mock-up shows a clear connection between Sagittarius and a scythe (at least on this star map).

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/Sagittarius-flipped-Hz5576-planisfero-DEATH-394997871

Link to Sagittarius with scythe in hands of Saturn as Father Time:
http://www.atlascoelestis.com/HZ 5576 09.htm

This is a beautiful map: thank you. I greatly enjoy this kind of images!

Death with a Scythe appears in the so-called Charles VI Tarot (likely from Florence, 1450 ca).

In the 1503 illustration, the seven planetary gods (plus Pluto) are associated with the four elements and placed at the corners of the sheet, in order to fill the spaces left by the circular map of the sky. The images of these gods do not belong to the map (obviously, no stars appear on the images of the planetary gods, each of whom represents a single star). Saturn and Venus are associate with element Air, which is placed in the corner closest to Sagittarius.

If I understand correctly what you are saying, you now propose that Death cards are a conflation of the Sagittarius constellation and the planetary god Saturn. This conflation brings in a scythe, but it blurs the meaning of the card (what is this Sagittarius/Saturn hybrid?) without explaining why we have a skeleton on the tarot card. I am afraid I am not following you: I still cannot see any “meaning” in your tarot origin “theory”.

kwaw

Pictures of death with a scythe became a popular convention among German illustrators from c.1470's on. However there are earlier examples of it - the earliest I have found is from Subiaco, Italy. There were many German illustrators there (two Germans set up the first printing press there), and it's possible they took this (Italian) concept back to Germany with them, and their illustrations popularized the image. I think the idea is based on biblical descriptions such as man being like blades of grass, and death is a harvestor, and has nothing to do with constellations and imaginary 'lost maps'. However, I believe there is likely some conflation of Death with scythe and images of Chronos/Saturn and Time. Death on horseback is likely apocalyptic - but there may again be some conflation with the Greek myth of pegasus as a bearer of dead souls to the skies.

Kwaw

kwaw

The Theme of Death in Italian Art

pdf here:

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webclient/StreamGate?folder_id=0&dvs=1377500828568~827

quote:

"The classification of the clergy and laity into categories is represented in the most notorious frescoes of the Triumph Death as in Pisa, in the Museum of Santa Croce, Florence, in the Benedictine monastery of Subiaco, in the Saint John's chapel of the Dominican church, Bozen and on the outside wall of Maria Trost, Meran, in the South Tyrol. They also recur later in the Dance of Death or Dance Macabre especially in northern Italy and northern Europe (France, Switzerland, Germany and England). All the existing Triumph of Death frescoes are centred on the iconographic image of death mowing down the lives of people belonging to the categories of clergy and laity. The categories of the dead are heaped up, under the scythe of the fast-and wildly-galloping or flying personification of death. The way in which triumphal death takes away the lives of humans expresses the dramatic reality of death to the medieval viewer. J. Le Goff applies the term 'estates', which means to him the socio-professional condition of society. In society, the categories of laity and clergy were still divided in a hierarchical order. Faced with death, aIl of them line up horizontally, which makes it clear that aIl individuals become equal when overcome by death."

kwaw

I think generally, before starting to speculate about 'lost star maps', it is a good idea to see how similar images are used in different contexts in the time and place to see how they were used and understood. For example, in terms of death, see how the image is used in Frescos, e.g., the Dance of Death series; preachers' printed tracts e.g., the Savanarola tract Arte del bene Morire has an illustration of Death with scythe flying over corpses; songbooks, e.g.,

Kwaw

Cartomancer

Death's scythe and Conrad Heinfogel's lost constellations

DoctorArcanus said:
Hello Cartomancer,
If I understand correctly what you are saying, you now propose that Death cards are a conflation of the Sagittarius constellation and the planetary god Saturn. This conflation brings in a scythe, but it blurs the meaning of the card (what is this Sagittarius/Saturn hybrid?) without explaining why we have a skeleton on the tarot card.

DoctorArcanus,
I will have to go over the points you bring up at a later time, but I don't think your arguments sink the constellation theory.

DoctorArcanus said:
In the 1503 illustration, the seven planetary gods (plus Pluto) are associated with the four elements and placed at the corners of the sheet, in order to fill the spaces left by the circular map of the sky. The images of these gods do not belong to the map (obviously, no stars appear on the images of the planetary gods, each of whom represents a single star).

Actually, the seven planetary gods (plus Pluto) and four elements, etc. are not placed there to fill the spaces left by the circular map of the sky. Those illustrations on the outside are actually constellations of the Southern sky. Those constellations have been ignored for over five hundred years, but I am happy to announce that the constellation of death has been revived and can be found on the Death card of the Tarot.

kwaw said:
Pictures of death with a scythe became a popular convention among German illustrators from c.1470's on.

The star map I used for these drawings was made by a German named Conrad Heinfogel in 1503. Heinfogel was a great mathematician and astronomer and collaborated with Albrecht Dürer on his star maps.

kwaw said:
I think the idea is based on biblical descriptions such as man being like blades of grass, and death is a harvester, and has nothing to do with constellations and imaginary 'lost maps'. However, I believe there is likely some conflation of Death with scythe and images of Chronos/Saturn and Time.
Kwaw

I predicted that there was a lost star map that would show the scythe of Death, but Heinfogel's star map shows Saturnus, who is the personification of death and is known as Father Time and the Grim Reaper as well.

The problem with naming constellations by the same name as planets is obvious, and is probably why these antique constellations never caught on. How would this sound: "The planet Saturn is transiting the constellation Saturnus".

So, happily I was able to find the constellations that match the figures on Conrad Heinfogel's star map and those "down under" now have about a dozen new constellations to gaze at. No, there aren't any more stars, the constellations just have different names and pictures. Be the first to see these new constellations if you can because they have been forgotten for five hundred years and are likely to be forgotten once again.

Here is a mock-up of the constellation Saturnus as the Death card as an animated Gif over the constellation of Corona Australis:

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/SATURNUS-CoronaAustralis-copy-2013-Lance-Carter-395877226

Do you think the constellation Saturnus as drawn by Conrad Heinfogel is a good fit over the constellation of Corona Australis and surrounding constellations? Remember that the Southern sky was not well-charted at the time and the southern constellations were not cut in stone. Was Conrad Heinfogel serious about his constellations or was it a joke? Did he omit the stars so that someone would have to figure out what constellations the figures represented?

Here is the Picture of Sagittarius and the constellation Saturnus that was previously linked:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/Sagittarius-flipped-Hz5576-planisfero-DEATH-394997871

The following art is from Conrad Heinfogel, Die Karte des Nördlichen Sternenhimmels, Inv.-Nr. 5576 Hz Manuscript of 1503 Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/10-SATURNUS-CoronaAustralis-Artwork-copy-2013-Lanc-396000994

Here is a combo of Heinfogel's art of Saturnus with a star map of Corona Australis:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/5-SATURNUS-CoronaAustralis-50-copy-2013-Lance-Car-396001328

Here is the star map of Corona Australis that was used for locating the constellation Saturnus.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/20-SATURNUS-CoronaAustralis-Star-Map-396001518

Here is how I predicted the scythe would look:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CORONA-AUSTRALIS-Scythe-C-394718293
Notice that the blade is in the right place, but that the handle is on the opposite side as Heinfogel's Saturnus constellation.

So now that the Death card has been determined to be the constellations Sagittarius and Corona Australis, what would be the next card choice to put to the constellation test? Strength? Justice? The Wheel?

-Cartomancer (Lance Carter)

Rosanne

Painted 1382
http://forum.tarothistory.com/download/file.php?id=1065

Hmmm, I think the origin of personification of Planets evolved from Islamic astrological writings. Mecury as scribe, Venus as female musician, Saturn as old man or 'worthy' with pickaxe, Jupiter as Sage/Judge with headress such as turban,Mars as Warrior etc.....
The Islamic writings were evolved from Ptolemic writings.Then they went West and took on Christian clothing.
~Rosanne

Moonstranger

Symbols of Hanged Man (continuation)

Will compare the Hindu and Scandinavian mythologies as a continutation of the analysis of Hanged Man symbolism.

Shukra (Venus) is the fiery seed of Shiva (the male power, which is unbeatable). Shukra is a heretoga of hosts of heaven, he rules Asuras – the spiritual heaven-born creatures or Ahura-Mazda of Zoroastrians. Asu – breath, Breath of God. This is a preparatory stage of the creative process – creation of the universe. He causes an attraction to the material world. He has one eye. He’s a poet. Shukra owns the principle of life - the animal soul (the cross), and therefore possesses the secret of immortality, and is able to resurrect. He spent a few thousand years hanging head down. He is the teacher, and forces a soul to go through the cycle of reincarnation for getting the wisdom. Shukra’ chariot is driven by eight Earth-born horses. Dyaus (sky) - Varuna.

In Scandinavian mythology the god who fits the best to that description is Odin (the supreme god, the father and leader of the Aesirs (angels)) . The god, who loves battles. Beeing hanged on the Igdrasil tree he cognized himself and his spirit. Odin lived on mountain tops. Odin-Wodan is a god of wind or divine breath. He restores the knowledge which was lost. Asgard is an upper world (the top of the pyramid). Odin gave away one of his eyes (the left one - the Moon) to Mimer, the owner of the source of wisdom, for a one sip from it. Odin is the lord of words and speeches. During St. Nicholas Day, he travels over the roofs of houses, throwing gifts into the chimneys for those children who behaved well during the past year. For those , who behaved badly, he brings a bunch of birch twigs. Three of gods: Odin, Vili and Ve created the Cosmos out of Ymir body. They are the three Nornas at the same time. Odin had a eight-legged horse Sleipnir.

The conclusion - Odin is the Venus, the eve star.

kwaw

Moonstranger said:
Odin is the Venus, the eve star.

Hi Moonstranger - when was the first literal mention of Odin (and his hanging on the tree) in the (latin/christian)west? Earliest example I know of is c.18th century...

(and what is the historical connection between Odin and Venus as Morning/Evening Star? the what is the connection between the star/venus and the hanged man (wouldn't venus/star fit with the Star card better?) ).

kwaw

Cartomancer said:
So now that the Death card has been determined to be the constellations Sagittarius and Corona Australis, what would be the next card choice to put to the constellation test?
-Cartomancer (Lance Carter)

hehe ... you wish! There is no such 'determination'. A statement is not a fact... and this statement is far from proved... {the opposite in fact, it is plainly ridiculous} - the real question is, this being ridiculous, why go on to 'the next card'?.

Well, because it can be enjoyable applying a system (as long as one does not confuse it with the system) ... and one can learn a few things along the byways ...a couple of which may apply - but even if not, one may come across some interesting stuff. And one of the things I have loved about studying the history of tarot is the many sidelines (and many dead alleys) it has took me down - so I am willing to undertake the journey, for the joy of the journey, not any belief in a (pre-determined) destination. That being said, this is a history forum with certain demands, and there is a clear line between fantasy/speculation and history and the need to distinguish between them - and anyone who crosses the line between representing speculation as fact should obviously be up to answer the veracity of such without taking insult. That being said, the common idea that one cannot explore ideas and speculations here I find nonsense, I often have (with people like Rosanne and Scion in the Behenian thread for example).

gregory

kwaw said:
I think generally, before starting to speculate about 'lost star maps', it is a good idea to see how similar images are used in different contexts in the time and place to see how they were used and understood. For example, in terms of death, see how the image is used in Frescos, e.g., the Dance of Death series; preachers' printed tracts e.g., the Savanarola tract Arte del bene Morire has an illustration of Death with scythe flying over corpses; songbooks, e.g.,

Kwaw

Indeed. No scythes in the Teutonic examples of Notke's work, for a start.

http://www.dodedans.com/Etext.htm#photo

http://www.dodedans.com/Epict.htm

and elsewhere:

http://www.medievalwall.com/painting/dance-of-death/

Hexham abbey

Some with scythes (in Croatia, this one):

I CANNOT buy into this constellations link, either. There are far too many variants of everything at every level.

The Tarot symbols origin

DoctorArcanus

kwaw

kwaw

kwaw

Cartomancer

Rosanne

Moonstranger

kwaw

kwaw

gregory