"Faith of the Seven" (GoT) and the tarot

I hope no such thread exists, I looked for it but didn't find one - if I missed it, I'm sorry!

While reading the Songs of Ice and Fire series, I was as always especially fascinated by the religion and beliefs of the different peoples. I just read a bit on the Internet where information is more concentrated and I noticed the similarity between the Seven Gods and tarot cards.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Faith_of_the_Seven

The Seven Gods are: the Father, the Mother, the Maiden, the Crone, the Warrior, the Smith, and the Stranger.

In tarot archetypes: the Emperor, the Empress, the High Priestess, the Hermit, Strength or the Chariot, Temperance, and Death.

Obviously there are similarities also to the Greek/Roman pantheon, in a condensed version, with Zeus, Hera/Demeter, Artemis/Athena, Hekate, Ares, Hephaistos and Hades.

Did you notice it, and what do you think about it? Am I slowly going crazy, seeing tarot staring at me everywhere ;-) or do you think it's possible the author was at least partly inspired by tarot cards?

I always find the idea fascinating to see tarot archetypes as divine forces (I know, there is thread about tarot as rite and religion), as they appear in so many decks. Seeing in a fictional world how a religion might work that is based on gods who resemble tarot so much is wonderful - although it doesn't make Westeros a happy, peaceful place. But that's the human factor, what can the poor gods do against human greed and aggression?

So what is the point of my post? No point, just wishing to share something that I enjoyed....

Interesting connection to draw. I might make the associations a bit differently (I'd be inclined to say the Star is more the Maiden, despite the Virgo/Hermit connection), but it's a fun thing to look at.

You could also consider the Seven in terms of the seven planets of classical astrology: Luna, Mercury, Venus, Sol, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. (In this case, we'd be connecting the Seven to the High Priestess, the Magician, the Empress, the Sun, the Tower, the Wheel of Fortune, and the World.)

Oh yes, the Star as maiden makes sense, and so does the Tower as warrior (Mars connection). It's not a tight fit but the free play of archetypes is fascinating...

Martin said in interviews that he took inspiration from medieval Catholicism. The planets were very important in daily life, so that's a great idea, too.

Nemia said:

The Seven Gods are: the Father, the Mother, the Maiden, the Crone, the Warrior, the Smith, and the Stranger.

In tarot archetypes: the Emperor, the Empress, the High Priestess, the Hermit, Strength or the Chariot, Temperance, and Death.

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I'd count the Maiden, the beginning of all life, and preternaturally innocent, as equating to the Fool. The High Priestess isn't about that origin of things, it's about wisdom and knowing.

Did you notice it, and what do you think about it?

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I haven't read the series, and I very likely won't.

Am I slowly going crazy, seeing tarot staring at me everywhere ;-)

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Hell, no. The reason why you do, is because Tarot is set up to reflect human experience. To not see Tarot everywhere is not to have internalised your knowledge of Tarot.

or do you think it's possible the author was at least partly inspired by tarot cards?

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Possibly, but if they did, there's be an authorial temptation to have at least 22 gods, don't you think? I think it is more likely that they are working with archetypes. Tarot is just on way of expressing archetypes, characters in books are another.

Nemia said:

I hope no such thread exists, I looked for it but didn't find one - if I missed it, I'm sorry!

While reading the Songs of Ice and Fire series, I was as always especially fascinated by the religion and beliefs of the different peoples. I just read a bit on the Internet where information is more concentrated and I noticed the similarity between the Seven Gods and tarot cards.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Faith_of_the_Seven

The Seven Gods are: the Father, the Mother, the Maiden, the Crone, the Warrior, the Smith, and the Stranger.

In tarot archetypes: the Emperor, the Empress, the High Priestess, the Hermit, Strength or the Chariot, Temperance, and Death.

Obviously there are similarities also to the Greek/Roman pantheon, in a condensed version, with Zeus, Hera/Demeter, Artemis/Athena, Hekate, Ares, Hephaistos and Hades.

Did you notice it, and what do you think about it? Am I slowly going crazy, seeing tarot staring at me everywhere ;-) or do you think it's possible the author was at least partly inspired by tarot cards?

I always find the idea fascinating to see tarot archetypes as divine forces (I know, there is thread about tarot as rite and religion), as they appear in so many decks. Seeing in a fictional world how a religion might work that is based on gods who resemble tarot so much is wonderful - although it doesn't make Westeros a happy, peaceful place. But that's the human factor, what can the poor gods do against human greed and aggression?

So what is the point of my post? No point, just wishing to share something that I enjoyed....

Click to expand...

Very interesting theory and I enjoyed reading your theory. I read the books a long time ago and eagerly await the next two.

Nisaba, thank you, I always like to read what you think, it's always so illuminating. Yes, the Fool has this tabula rasa feeling - but I feel there is something feminine in the Maiden, a starting point for the feminine triad of maiden, mother, crone. But the High Priestess is very knowing and wise, and so is the Star. Well, no perfect fit...

Conurelover, well, it's not really a theory - more of wondering while I read, and, like Nisaba said, connecting archetypes in books with archetypes I know from tarot.

Nemia said:

Obviously there are similarities also to the Greek/Roman pantheon, in a condensed version, with Zeus, Hera/Demeter, Artemis/Athena, Hekate, Ares, Hephaistos and Hades.

Click to expand...

I had not thought to compare them with the Greek/Roman pantheon as I'm always seeing medieval Europe when I watch that show. Great idea and once you link them, link the trumps with the classical gods associated with the Visconti: the Maiden/Artemis might be The Moon, and Strength (Hercules) could be the Warrior.

I think of the Maiden as more similar to the Fool or the Star than the High Priestess. She's usually mentioned as being more related to beauty, youthfulness, and similar things. Of course, I don't think of the High Priestess as ugly, but they suggest different "types" to me. If we're going outside of the Majors, I'd pick the Page or Knight of Cups for her.

I like the idea of thinking of them as cards, but they seem to correspond more with archetypes than directly inspired by the Tarot.

This thread looks amusing. I haven't been aware of it until now.

Nemia said:

The Seven Gods are: the Father, the Mother, the Maiden, the Crone, the Warrior, the Smith, and the Stranger.

(...)

Obviously there are similarities also to the Greek/Roman pantheon, in a condensed version, with Zeus, Hera/Demeter, Artemis/Athena, Hekate, Ares, Hephaistos and Hades.

Click to expand...

Your comparison to the Classical pantheon is good, but I would suggest these complements:
Mother = Rhea/Cybele/Meter theon/Dione/Theia (there is no lack of maternal goddesses in Classical mythology)
Maiden = Persephone/Hebe
Warrior = Hercules (after apotheosis)
Stranger = Kronos-Saturn/Thanatos

Nemia said:

Seeing in a fictional world how a religion might work that is based on gods who resemble tarot so much is wonderful - although it doesn't make Westeros a happy, peaceful place. But that's the human factor, what can the poor gods do against human greed and aggression?

Click to expand...

Every religion that ever existed has been abused to a lesser or greater extent, despite the mystical depth present in most of them.

Nemia said:

Oh yes, the Star as maiden makes sense, and so does the Tower as warrior (Mars connection). It's not a tight fit but the free play of archetypes is fascinating...

Martin said in interviews that he took inspiration from medieval Catholicism. The planets were very important in daily life, so that's a great idea, too.

Click to expand...

They were, indeed, but The Crone and the Sun are the odd ones out in such a comparison:
Stranger - Saturn
Father - Jupiter
Warrior - Mars
Mother - Venus
Smith - Mercury
Maiden - Moon

Female characters belonging either to the cosmic or the divine realm were not unknown in mediaeval Catholicism. In Hebrew and Aramaic the expression 'Holy Spirit' is feminine grammatical gender, which has informed the view on the Holy Spirit in the Oriental Churches, but was much less spread in Western Europe, where the awareness of Aramaic was uncommon. The divine nature of Jesus is designated 'Mother' by St. Anselm (d. 1109) and Julian of Norwich (fl. 1396). Divine Wisdom (Sophia) is mentioned in Book of Proverbs and in some of the Deutero-Canonical books, and was commemorated in a votive mass written by Alcuin (d. 804) until this votive mass to Divine Wisdom was suppressed when a new Missal was promulgated in 1570. In the 14th century, Henry Suso assembled a votive office (eight daily prayer services) to Divine Wisdom for private use, and it was reprinted many times until it became unfashionable in the 18th century. 'Philosophy', 'Philology' and 'Mother Nature' were allegorical characters, and part of general awareness among educated mediaeval Catholics. Seven female personifications are the protagonists (and one an antagonist) in Bernardus Silvestris' philosophical treatise 'Cosmographia'.

Despite this background, I cannot free myself from the suspicion that Martin picked the Maiden-Mother-Crone triad from modern Wicca or from Robert Graves.

It would be unwise to underestimate the place of saints in mediaeval Catholicism. Although human beings, they were thought to have been perfected by divine grace (in a way - potentially - every human being could be). Among popular saints, these comparisons are brought to mind:

Mother - Mary (mother of Jesus) and her mother Anne
Maiden - Mary (mother of Jesus)
Father - every founder of a monastic rule or a religious order, thus varying between St. Augustine, St. Benedict, St. Bruno, St. Bernard (not a founder), St. Francis or St. Dominic
Warrior & Stranger - St. Michael the Archangel
Smith - St. Eligius, St. Andronicus and St. Dunstan

The Crone is less easily brought into the pattern, but perhaps St. Scholastica or a particular aspect of Mary - Our Lady of Sorrows - fits.

It could be argued that St. Joseph of Nazareth would fit both 'The Father' and 'The Stranger', but the prominence of St. Joseph belongs to the time after the Tridentine council, and not to the Middle Ages. Even saints have their business cycles, as it were.