two readings, baffled by both

My real question is the second spread, but you need the first to know what the second is about.

OK. Here's a timing spread that Amanda shared a while ago: http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3164677&postcount=7
I think of it as being for "When should I...?" questions, but technically it can be used for "When will...?" questions as well and that's what I did in this case. Amanda doesn't use positions here, but lets the cards show which signifies the event in question and reads the others to supply context.

A bit of Amanda's own explanation:

Amanda said:

Pull 5 cards, no positions, and typically I only use upright orientation of the cards. Any less than 5 cards and you may not get enough "story" to go along with the timing. But anymore than 5 and you may get confused on which card is showing you time.

Typically in my experience, the timing cards will fall somewhere between the middle and the end of the 5 cards you've drawn. The placement of the timing card is significant, because it shows what is to come before and/or after the event. Major Arcana and Court Cards will never show you a time frame, but rather, help tell the story.

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NB: I don't do dates and precise timing with tarot. I don't assign seasons to the suits, or count the numbers as dates, or allocate Zodiac signs and so on. That's not the relationship I have with time. When I ask "When?" I mean "What will happen first?" "What indications will show me that it's time?" "How will I recognise it, when it happens?" That kind of thing.

Question: When will I see this project coming together for real (meaning, starting to show measurable success)?
Nine of Wands . Five of Pentacles . Ten of Swords . Mother of Swords . XVII The Star

I immediately saw the Star as signifying the success I'm looking for. So the Mother of Swords will be the sign that it's all about to come together. Normally I'd take a court as an attitude, but I had a strong feeling that this is a person. Maybe a woman who will be a mentor in some way, who has already had success in a similar line. Or maybe a rejection or a telling of home truths, by a mother figure (not my own mother since she is no longer around). If I'm wrong and this is an attitude, success will appear when I get myself emotionally independent and access my clear judgment etc, my inner businesswoman. Maybe even when my eldest finally moves out and I shed a lot of the Mother role?

The 9 of Wands seems like the place I'm in now, and need to be a bit deeper in - plodding on, but getting elbow-deep in this project could be taken further.

The 5P+10S are worrying! Surely "poverty" followed (or accompanied) by "despair". Nice and easy to read but I can't face this, and have been feeling this year is my time for things to turn around, after a series of Tower-type events that have moved me backwards and put all sorts of projects on hold, since 2006 or even since 1999 depending what you include. Not only can I not face any more, I also don't believe I have to be passive in the face of cruel fate.

So I considered (these two cards in particular) for a couple of days, and trying to reconcile myself to this future disaster, kept hearing myself asking WHY. Why this, why me, why now. (There's a great book with that title, in fact!) I tried soul-searching and facing hard truths, but then I tried asking the cards again - focusing on the 10 of Swords since that's the one really scaring me.

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The WhyWhyWhyWhy Spread is here (and I know it isn't perfect): http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=251136
In short, each card explains the one before, and the last sums it all up. (I attempted a briefer plea on this reading in UTC: http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=251203)

1 - the question, puzzle, problem or block - the situation, the "issue" ... this card can be drawn like the others, or chosen beforehand as a kind of significator for the situation (for example, if you feel strongly drawn towards becoming a performer, maybe choose the Knight of Wands or something like that for this position; or it could be a card from another reading which you want to clarify)
2 - Why card 1?
3 - Why card 2?
4 - Why card 3?
5 - Why card 4?
6 - Why card 5 / Overall, why? ... this will be the solution to the problem or question; the meaning of the subject.

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Question: Why is this Ten of Swords ahead, what's it about?
Ten of Swords . Nine of Swords . XIX The Sun . Six of Pentacles . IX The Hierophant . Six of Wands
base: Mother of Cups

Maybe the base card as "What's behind this?" relates to the Mother of Swords in the last reading, and says something like, I'm asking this from a Mother of Cups standpoint which isn't the approach I need for this project...? I don't know.

Ten of Swords . The "this" in question. Ending; death; end of hope, despair, desperation; disaster; time to Delete All and dream up a completely new plan.

Nine of Swords . Why that despair/disaster? Because... my fears and anxieties come true. OR they overwhelm me.

XIX The Sun . Why will they "win out? Because... I'm being childish? My thinking is over-simiplistic? I keep starting things that I don't see through? I focus on the glory without dealing with the in-between steps, the realities? (But I wouldn't usually read the Sun as rose-tinted, in the way that, say, the 7 of Cups is or the Moon can be.) I just focus on me-me-me?

Six of Pentacles . Why am I childish? Because "the fruit is ripe for the picking / share and share alike / take as I need ?? this is what I want to be the case ??" (Can't make a reason for the Sun from this card however hard I look at it.)

IX The Hierophant . Why this "tasting of the harvest"? Because... the learning hits hard, and must be broadcast? By this I mean maybe it's something about toeing the line. But again I can't make sense of this.

Six of Wands . Why this lesson, or this stage of learning? Because... "celebration after the struggle; being lauded; achieving the wanted (or fated) transformation"...? Rodney suggested hubris for this card. I have an idea I must be taken down a peg - must, or will, be. The lesson of the Hierophant is because of my hubris.

I'll try this in sentences to see if it's clearer like that. The situation or event of despair is ahead for me, because of my anxieties... and they're because I'm being simplistic. (I have a sense of forcing things to happen despite the signs, or despite my intuition.) I'll be simplistic because I want to feel abundance(?) and that's because I need, or will get, or will have had, a lesson... brought on by my hubris. - Well that didn't help!

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I am really stumped here. To the point of wishing I'd never started trying to work it out.

If it matters, I was thinking of this year, maybe several months rather than as far as the end of 2016. And I used the Wild Unknown for both readings.

(I won't be replying till tomorrow, as I'm going to bed now, but wanted to get this typed.)

10 of swords can also mean that you have enough of this situation, this could be a card that acts like a slap on your face to wake you up. I remember reading somewhere that cards are telling us that if we continue acting in such a way, this is how the situation will unfold. But if we change behaviour, the future will be different. Maybe this card is a strong indicator that you need to stop thinking in a negative way?

Michellehihi said:

10 of swords can also mean that you have enough of this situation, this could be a card that acts like a slap on your face to wake you up. I remember reading somewhere that cards are telling us that if we continue acting in such a way, this is how the situation will unfold. But if we change behaviour, the future will be different. Maybe this card is a strong indicator that you need to stop thinking in a negative way?

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This would make sense - if my thinking was negative! But it isn't, generally, just a little frustrated that things aren't moving faster, but I didn't realistically expect them to.

It's a good reading of the card, though.

It does still leave the 5P + 10S standing between me now, and me seeing success. I'm trying to find a reading of this pair that doesn't boil down to "no resources within myself, only from others' support or sense of charity" + "it's all over". At best it seems to say I must experience the depths, hit bottom before bouncing up. I really don't want to do that AGAIN after having done it a lot of times already.

I'm trying to fit your interpretation in, in a way that fits what the question was, if you see what I mean. It does fit with the hit-bottom-bounce-up sequence. Oh well.

Sorry for my delay replying, I haven't been on AT for a couple of days.

MandMaud said:

Ten of Swords . The "this" in question. Ending; death; end of hope, despair, desperation; disaster; time to Delete All and dream up a completely new plan.

Nine of Swords . Why that despair/disaster? Because... my fears and anxieties come true. OR they overwhelm me.

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Actually, this also reinforces what you said, Michellehihi.

Looks like I need to read on what I can do to change the course of this thing, and still reach success - without the Slough of Despond before I get there.

MandMaud said:

I immediately saw the Star as signifying the success I'm looking for. So the Mother of Swords will be the sign that it's all about to come together.

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I have realised that in Amanda's post that I linked to (or at least in that thread), she states that the object of the "when" is NEVER a major. Which rules out the Star, and would make the Mother of Swords signify the visible success I'm looking for. That does feel right to me: the Mother of Swords, the thoughtful lady owl contemplating her options, able to strike swiftly at the right moment based on everything that happens - as the businesswoman doing ok, exercising good judgment etc.

MandMaud said:

Normally I'd take a court as an attitude, but I had a strong feeling that this is a person. Maybe a woman who will be a mentor in some way, who has already had success in a similar line. Or maybe a rejection or a telling of home truths, by a mother figure (not my own mother since she is no longer around). If I'm wrong and this is an attitude, success will appear when I get myself emotionally independent and access my clear judgment etc, my inner businesswoman. Maybe even when my eldest finally moves out and I shed a lot of the Mother role?

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Then the Star follows, and it's great to see that ahead after things begin to come together!

But this doesn't help with the question of why the 5P+10S sit there in the way.

NB:

MandMaud said:

My real question is the second spread, but you need the first to know what the second is about.

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!!



And

MandMaud said:

Question: Why is this Ten of Swords ahead, what's it about?
Ten of Swords . Nine of Swords . XIX The Sun . Six of Pentacles . IX The Hierophant . Six of Wands
base: Mother of Cups

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I am still utterly stuck on this so-called "explanatory" reading. All of it, after the 9S - especially my guess at the Sun, that doesn't feel right at all but I can't think of anything else. The only negative or negative-ish way of reading the Sun that comes to mind, apart from childishness and/or self-centredness (not selfishness), is barrenness, the burning and drought of too much sun. Which I can't make fit with the chill of the 9 of Swords

I often read the Ten of Swords as paranoia, so the Five of Pentacles + Ten of Swords could be about feeling dejected and paranoid that your idea will never become a success as it all seems like such a struggle right now (Nine of Wands) and you're on the defensive. The QoS could be someone who will help you get a clearer picture of the situation, or it could be you taking control of those emotions which are currently causing you anxiety.

Majors and Court cards will not show you timing according to Amanda's spread, so your QoS isn't the timing card here if you're adhering to her rules. I can't really indentify a time frame in this combination of cards, but perhaps Amanda herself may be able to help? What I am seeing is you needing to persevere in order to achieve your goals, and work through any anxieties you have about the outcome being a success.

Edit: just read briefly through Amanda's example, and myabe the Ten of Swords is the timing card, and using her system that would make it ten months.

The Sun - perhaps all this anxiety (Nine of Swords) is making you feel burnt out? Also, sun can be about ego, so maybe your pride is affecting how you're seeing things at the moment.

Six of Wands - lack of self confidence? Being overly confident? Maybe you're projecting one thing, but feeling another. Sorry, just trying to get my head around your whywhywhy spread -if one card is read off, then it puts the rest of the spread out. But it all reduces to the six of wands essentially doesn't it, and this seems to be about confidence - either too much, or too little regarding the success of the project.

Anyway, just some thoughts

Return to Reading #1

Hello Original Poster,
I actually seldom do "clarification readings" myself ... so I am going to take-on reading #1 because I think it is not so bad a reading at all ... please don't fear it so much!

9 Wands a position of advantage but a bit tired. Timing: Saggitarius or the end of the "will" phase
5 pentacles Timing: Taurus or the middle of the manifestation phase. Could be lack of finances or could be lack of physical energy. Tired, allergies, or sick.
10 Swords Timing: Gemini or end of "idea" phase. Note that Taurus is May and Gemini is June.
I know you said that you don't work with dates and linear time ... but I do ... so there you have it.
Queen Swords: a clever lady who can either re-work the original idea (maybe you) or help you re-work the flaws in the original idea. Or next to the 10 Swords ... maybe she is a clever lady who screws-up your idea ... I would have to know more to say whether she is related to the 10 swords or the Star.

The Star. ANY reading is made lovely by Star as the outcome. This signifies a complete re-birth or renewal after the disaster of the 10 swords. Sometimes you are in love with in idea and then discover the whole thing is flawed and you have to dump it and go back to the drawing board. This is actually a fairly positive reading as it shows a complete failure then something MUCH BETTER rising from the ashes! The Star is a major so if you suffer a minor failure on the way to major success ... be happy!
Best Regards,
Natasya

Winter garden, thanks for your thoughts.

winter garden said:

I often read the Ten of Swords as paranoia, so the Five of Pentacles + Ten of Swords could be about feeling dejected and paranoid that your idea will never become a success as it all seems like such a struggle right now (Nine of Wands) and you're on the defensive. The QoS could be someone who will help you get a clearer picture of the situation, or it could be you taking control of those emotions which are currently causing you anxiety.

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I like that for the Queen. Not sure about paranoia - seems more of a 9S or 8S thing, to me - but maybe. Although the way you put it with the 5P makes sense, and they add up to 15 which is the Devil, and could reinforce the misleading or misdirected aspect of this state of mind. Having one's mind taken off the real priorities by focusing on the wrong ones, I mean.

winter garden said:

Majors and Court cards will not show you timing according to Amanda's spread, so your QoS isn't the timing card here if you're adhering to her rules.

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Ah, I missed that. I wasn't doing timing in Amanda's way, so maybe the Star is still the success / turning-point that I want. On the other hand I've got used to the QoS being that, now! But even if I knew nothing about tarot, I don't tend to think of "How long...?" questions in terms of calendar-type time periods, much more in terms of what must happen beforehand, or what the situation will be or what/who I will be at the time that the thing comes to pass. So I've never tried date-type timing with the cards (except VERY occasionally going for a season of the year in a very approximate way) and so I'd be surprised if my cards told me anything like a date.

I love Amanda's spread because I find it very adaptable. Sometimes it's "When will...?" but sometimes it's "What should I, in order to...?" and so on.

winter garden said:

I can't really indentify a time frame in this combination of cards, but perhaps Amanda herself may be able to help? What I am seeing is you needing to persevere in order to achieve your goals, and work through any anxieties you have about the outcome being a success.

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Yep, that's exactly how I'm seeing it. Whether the 5P+10S is what you say, or some other variation, I can only see it as yet another period of things being Really Bloomin' Tough before it all turns round. I don't mind hard work but I'm not sure I have it in me to face even one more blow.

I do have a feeling that when the project does start picking up steam, it will come together pretty suddenly. As if during all this time reaching that point, a head of steam is building up which will trigger pretty fast movement once it powers any at all. And I know I'm not up to dealing with that right now (physically), so I want the build-up to be gradual and the movement to happen when I am ready for it.

I can think of one single known "enemy" that is yet to strike. The DWP: the government department that rules my benefits. I haven't got a penny spare but the changes and cuts are coming... no individual knows when they'll get the letter and in the past this kind of bombshell has landed in the middle of other huge demands on my energy (for example they pooed on me from a great height shortly before I went away with friends - and I ended up cancelling because handling that left me unable to pack for travelling). It isn't guaranteed that my benefits will drop, but I'm pretty sure they will. I also stand to lose about 30% of my current income in two years' time when my son reaches 18 (because what I get from my ex will halve then). So I'm determined to get myself earning enough, if not plenty, over the next year or two.

If the Star is the end product after all, the Queen could well be the DWP: government, paperwork, admin, legal-type stuff. There are absolutely no Cups in these readings, except the base which (for me) is where the second reading "came from" - my feelings about the first reading, probably!

Frankly it's more the emotional impact of any such blow that scares me, rather than the physical. Though the finance side and the physical-health side are also very scary. But I've spent a long time keeping my spirits up and even achieving the impossible, in the face of impossible odds, and I may be running out of fairy dust.

So you see why I am not keen on the Five of Pents.

You're right; I will ask Amanda to pop in and look at this thread. I have huge respect for her reading, she has really good insights every time.

winter garden said:

Edit: just read briefly through Amanda's example, and maybe the Ten of Swords is the timing card, and using her system that would make it ten months.

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Yes, despite what I said about not doing months or similar, it would be this if I did. Which would make it Christmas-ish - again, a tough year still ahead of me.

Really, this weekend I need to do a How to make this happen sooner reading! The passive When will was a mistake, in hindsight - I need techniques, not forecasts.