Does the Tarot de Marseille comes from Occitania?

Namadev

Lombardy and pre-TdM : Milano ?

Hi

Two clues indicate the Lombardy and the Milanese connection for the later TdM pattern.

1)The Cary Sheet with many proto-TdM design such as the Sun Card as A. Vitali showed in his essay : two children under the luminary with drops falling down.

2)The Castello Sforzesco with Anima Mundi as Word (again Andrea Vitali essay on World)


Regards


Alain Bougearel

Nota bene

The Oldest French Rules listing the Trumps in the TdM order is dated 1637 but mention of some material of these rules appears in 1585 in a text of Perrache "Le Triomphe du Berlan" (Brelan?)


Ross G Caldwell said:
Hi Robert,



I think so. However, the exact TdM order, and the complete set of designs, is not attested in any Italian source (until they began copying the French model in the 19th (or late 18th?) century). So there is room to speculate that cardmakers in Avignon or Marseille (and hence in "Occitania") changed a Lombard or Savoyard deck that was nearly identical, but not quite, into the TdM we know today. Therefore, as few as these changes would have been, the TdM in some small way could be said to have "developed in Occitania".



Absolutely. Note however that people who have studied this question in detail, and are familiar with all the sources, are very few. The only ones I know to offer an opinion on the subject are Michael Dummett, Thierry Depaulis, Franco Pratesi, Jean-Claude Flornoy, Alain Bougearel, Lothar, Andy (of Andy's Playing Cards), Michael Hurst, and myself (I don't know really if Hurst would claim perfect knowledge of the question, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt) There are probably some others, but not many.

So not too many minds have pondered it, but to say they (and those who rely on them) "lean toward Lombardy" is a wholly accurate description.



Yes. Catelin Geoffroy is from Lyon, 1557. Jacques Viéville is circa 1650, Paris.
Further, the earliest French rules (the earliest surviving rules anywhere) date from 1637, and they give the TdM order. They were written in Paris (IIRC).

Note that Geoffroy gives the TdM order, although his cards aren't in TdM style. Viéville's cards aren't in TdM order or style. The earliest mention of tarots in French is from Avignon, 1505 (spelled there taraux). It is impossible to say what style of tarot decks these were.
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Ross G Caldwell

Helvetica said:
You mean in Provençal/Occitan or in langue l'oïl?

Avignon is in Occitanie (Southern half of France) . And taraux is a town in the South.
Click to expand...

Nobody knows. Thierry Depaulis thinks it is French (langue d'oil). I don't know anybody else who has expressed an opinion in print.

Thierry is French, and he knows his reasons. He published a paper on the earliest mention of the word "taraux" in "The Playing Card" last year.

I knew about the town, now called "Tharaux" near Avignon. In a document from about 1550, it is spelled "Taraux". The etymology is obscure - there is no consensus. There is another town called Tharot (near Avallon) in the middle of France. It would also be pronounced (I imagine) "Tarot".

I found a near-connection between the town of Tharaux and an early cardmaker in Avignon. Here's something from a post in December 2003 -

"A theory on where the name "taraux" came from.

Look at this map -
http://www.gard-provencal.com/vv/tharaux.htm

Note the town "Tharaux" - in 1550, it was spelled "Taraux".

Look at this history of the name here -
http://www.chez.com/giorgiomat/Germer_Durand/Tharaux.htm

A dictionary tells me the name is proabably celtic in origin (like
most of these old little French towns). It might relate to a mythical
founder called "Taravus", or to the root "Tar-", which is the same
as "Tor" and "Taur", which means "strength" and of course "bull."
There are several towns in France with names like this - the most
striking is "Tharot", south of Paris.

But this one does not concern me.

Look at the first map again. Note the next town to the north, St.
Jean de Marejols. This town is about 2km from Tharaux. Both towns are
in the diocese of Uzés, about 60km from Avignon, where a large card
production was going in the 15th to the early 16th century (around 30
master cardmakers from 1441-1518, more if you count apprentices). It
is in Avignon, in 1507, that the earliest use of the word "taraux"
cards is found.

Most of the cardmakers in Avignon have their original towns noted.
Several are from the Diocese of Uzés, and all are active at the same
time around 1507. The biggest cardmaker in town at that time was Jean
Fort, or "le Fort" - "the Strong." (Sforza means "the strong" also -
like, perhaps, "Taraux"). One cardmaker married a woman from St. Jean
de Marejols. He is not heard from again after 1502, but wives are
noted as taking over cardmaking when their husbands die. So we have,
in 1507, the quite likely possibility that someone who knows a town
called "Taraux" is making "taraux" cards.

Could they be a pun on the name "le Fort" - "Sforza" - "the Strong" -
Hence "Strong cards" (since the trumps are stronger than the rest) -
Taraux?

(naturally, I'll be looking into this theory when I have a chance to
travel to Tharaux and Avignon - maybe there is a tradition there)."
 

Namadev

Marseilles and Occitania

Helvetica said:
I stand corrected, Ross. I had always assumed Occitania to be South-West of France (because of Occitan meaning West). I have Provençal and Languedoc ancestors - I am glad to be sorted out.



Hi

I agree with ross.

We should remeber that Marseille will join the Comte of Toulouse's son reconquest against Simon de Montfort(military chief of the North French Conquista of Occitania).

Though iconagraphically the milanese origin is plausible (see precedent post),
I and others consider that the TdM card- "master" were realizing a"chef-d'oeuvre" and went first as compagnon along an "initiatic" road parallel to those of St Jacques of Compostelle.

I think that, even if they "received" from Lombardy the Milanese design as drawned on the Cary Sheet wood-cut or the Castello Srforzesco remaining "cards", they reconsided and re-interpreted these motifs thoughout their environment : such as roman and gothic religious edifices that they could see and visit while "pilgrims".

A biographical inquiry specific ti the known cards makers of the TdM hasn't been done : we know little about their conviction, relations etc.

Regards

Alain BOugearel
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Namadev

T(h)araux

Link :


http://www.nimausensis.com/Germer_Durand/Tharaux.htm



Alain

Ross G Caldwell said:
Nobody knows. Thierry Depaulis thinks it is French (langue d'oil). I don't know anybody else who has expressed an opinion in print.

Thierry is French, and he knows his reasons. He published a paper on the earliest mention of the word "taraux" in "The Playing Card" last year.

I knew about the town, now called "Tharaux" near Avignon. In a document from about 1550, it is spelled "Taraux". The etymology is obscure - there is no consensus. There is another town called Tharot (near Avallon) in the middle of France. It would also be pronounced (I imagine) "Tarot".

I found a near-connection between the town of Tharaux and an early cardmaker in Avignon. Here's something from a post in December 2003 -

"A theory on where the name "taraux" came from.

Look at this map -
http://www.gard-provencal.com/vv/tharaux.htm

Note the town "Tharaux" - in 1550, it was spelled "Taraux".

Look at this history of the name here -
http://www.chez.com/giorgiomat/Germer_Durand/Tharaux.htm

A dictionary tells me the name is proabably celtic in origin (like
most of these old little French towns). It might relate to a mythical
founder called "Taravus", or to the root "Tar-", which is the same
as "Tor" and "Taur", which means "strength" and of course "bull."
There are several towns in France with names like this - the most
striking is "Tharot", south of Paris.

But this one does not concern me.

Look at the first map again. Note the next town to the north, St.
Jean de Marejols. This town is about 2km from Tharaux. Both towns are
in the diocese of Uzés, about 60km from Avignon, where a large card
production was going in the 15th to the early 16th century (around 30
master cardmakers from 1441-1518, more if you count apprentices). It
is in Avignon, in 1507, that the earliest use of the word "taraux"
cards is found.

Most of the cardmakers in Avignon have their original towns noted.
Several are from the Diocese of Uzés, and all are active at the same
time around 1507. The biggest cardmaker in town at that time was Jean
Fort, or "le Fort" - "the Strong." (Sforza means "the strong" also -
like, perhaps, "Taraux"). One cardmaker married a woman from St. Jean
de Marejols. He is not heard from again after 1502, but wives are
noted as taking over cardmaking when their husbands die. So we have,
in 1507, the quite likely possibility that someone who knows a town
called "Taraux" is making "taraux" cards.

Could they be a pun on the name "le Fort" - "Sforza" - "the Strong" -
Hence "Strong cards" (since the trumps are stronger than the rest) -
Taraux?

(naturally, I'll be looking into this theory when I have a chance to
travel to Tharaux and Avignon - maybe there is a tradition there)."
Click to expand...
 

Sophie

Alain and Ross - what wonderful posts, both of you!

Ross said:
Could they be a pun on the name "le Fort" - "Sforza" - "the Strong" -Hence "Strong cards" (since the trumps are stronger than the rest) -
Taraux?
Click to expand...
Love that! The more time I spend with these cards, the more puns seem to rise from them. What you suggest would be just in that line.

Namadev said:
We should remeber that Marseille will join the Comte of Toulouse's son reconquest against Simon de Montfort(military chief of the North French Conquista of Occitania).
Click to expand...
Good reminder.

Namadev said:
Though iconagraphically the milanese origin is plausible (see precedent post),I and others consider that the TdM card- "master" were realizing a"chef-d'oeuvre" and went first as compagnon along an "initiatic" road parallel to those of St Jacques of Compostelle.

I think that, even if they "received" from Lombardy the Milanese design as drawned on the Cary Sheet wood-cut or the Castello Srforzesco remaining "cards", they reconsided and re-interpreted these motifs thoughout their environment : such as roman and gothic religious edifices that they could see and visit while "pilgrims".
Click to expand...
Absolument! That is what I was stammering above, very uncertainly, when I wrote about iconography that looks to me more French than Italian. Le Monde is like that figure Christ in the mandorla in Toulouse, but reinterpreted in a neoplatonic way. Le Diable has the antlers of Cernunnos (Gaulish god); Le Toille is a replica of Gaulish images of naked goddesses with urns at sacred healing springs; the creatures on La Roue look like the grotesques so prominent on French churches and cathedrals (less so in Italy). Is it surprising? of course not! French cuisine originally came from Italy and was adapted and transformed into the greatest cuisine on earth, seemlessly; the elegant and quintessential Chateaux de la Loire were inspired by Italy, often had Italian architects (or Italian-trained), but are wholly French. Why should we be surprised this happened to Tarot?

Namadev said:
A biographical inquiry specific to the known cards makers of the TdM hasn't been done : we know little about their conviction, relations etc.
Click to expand...
I totally agree. I've been studying the Tarot de Marseille for all of 7 months (!), but very soon I thought - who made them? who were they? how were they trained? what did they believe? what was their religious senisibility, political orientation, etc. etc. How many were masters? how many compagnons? Ross mentioned wives taking over their late husbands' trades - what was the female influence on the Tarot? So many questions, unanswered!

I am bubbling with curiosity here!
Sophie
 

venicebard

Ross G Caldwell said:
...Avignon, where a large card
production was going in the 15th to the early 16th century (around 30
master cardmakers from 1441-1518, more if you count apprentices). It
is in Avignon, in 1507, that the earliest use of the word "taraux"
cards is found.
Click to expand...
I would be interested to know if the first attested use of the Italian word tarocco predates 1507?

This latter, according to the ‘Andy’s Playing Cards’ site, was the source term for Europe generally and probably traces to an Arabic term related to ‘hammered gold relief’, used in early cards’ decoration. I am merely curious, as I am of the ‘Marseille main-line’ school and even consider the early Cary card sheet a ‘take-off’ (this based on my analysis of the symbolism).
But they could, I suppose, have been created by Languedoc refugees in Italy somewhere.

Also, I hardly see what possible designs WERE being manufactured in that region around 1500 if NOT the Marseilles.
 

venicebard

Thanks, Cerulean

Come to think of it, I have heard the English word tare.
So, the Italian and French terms were roughly contemporary.
 

firemaiden

Rabelais and Tarot

I thought the first mention in French of the tarot ("tarau") was 1534 from Rabelais. (c.f. Rabelais and Tarot). 1505? What happened in 1505?

As for the theory of an French/Occitanian origin for the tarot, Robert le Pendu... from my travels through this site over time, I have observed that it remains a fervently held wish here, rather than a proveable theory, and a wish held by those like jmd and Diana (and myself) and others for reasons which are probably mostly sentimental.

Here are some of the points (which have been raised on this site) speculating how an Occitanian origin could have been possible.

- Southern France would have been a likely stopover point for the transmission of cards from Arabic countries via Spain en route to Italy.

-Southern France very early on had paper mills. (by late 12th century)

-The tarot could have had something to do with the Albigensian crusade, encoding the secret heresy and carrying it to Italy as the persecuted fled.

-The Tarot could have had something to do with "compagnonages" - the medieval societies of professions in France, particularly the early stone masons involved in building the great cathedrals of France (les tailleurs de pierre) whose stone carvings bear all the images of the major arcana. Little by little, jmd has been posting links to cathedral carvings like this one which suggest the major arcana. Tarot cards as memory aids for stone cutters?

See an earlier discussion of an Occitanian origin on this thread: The origin of Tarot, Kris Hadar and Occitania started by Diana
 

jmd

Thierry Depaulis discovered in the last few years an instance of 'taraux' in a manuscript from 1505 (I have lost the email in which he first mentions this, I think from 2002).

In some ways, also, there is evidence of Masons' notebooks as they worked on the Cathedrals. So there is a possibility that SOME of the outside carvings may have been also within notebooks in Occitania.

...though that would indeed be a find.

Still, illuminated manuscripts, especially in the rebuilding or re-furbishment of earlier monastic buildings, would have very likely have been inspiration (or even possible source) of iconographic and stylistic imagery for the stone-carvers.
 
Eduardo and Teodoro Dotti Tarots circa 1850s How were cards made?