Richard
The Great Work is a desire to transcend the natural (created) world and unite with the One. It cannot arise from nature itself, but is made possible by the fact that in essence we are already uncreated but have forgotten our origins.
2 of Cups - Where are they standing?
ravenest
Sure; connection, coming together, complimenting ... but I have never had to 'SACRIFICE' anything, let alone 'the other' sacrificing a part of me (nor me sacrificing part of them) ...even when I 'SANCTIFY' something.
Maybe if I wasn't a wild pagan working with a 'raw power in nature' and had some idea that it needs to be sanctified by some Christian holy marriage concept a la 'Waite-a-bit'.
sanc·ti·fy Verb
1.Set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
2.Make legitimate or binding by religious sanction.
1. That's my understanding ... I use the force or power (shown in the 2 of cups) for a spiritual purpose (i.e. not to use aversly, hold power over someone, suppress development etc.) Chymical weddings and gnostic masses are forms to help us remember that natural sanctity ... they don't change nature and make it sanctified by the ritual IMO.
Being a Pan Theist I see all of nature as sanctified ... even two dogs f***ing ... its the warped un nature al human that de-sanctifies it from its natural state and tut tut and veils nature and throws buckets of water over it ... its all a bit unclean isn't it ... unless we add number 2 above... which is maybe what Waite is referring to ???
Sex is bad ... unless you get married ... it's still bad though unless you do it to make more members for the church and state - ahhh ... now its sanctified
ravenest
That's a doozey!
The Great Work is the desire to fulfil nature (the unfolding and operation of my 'genius' in this incarnation IN the created world) and unite with that nature in the world of duality. It is part of my 'nature' / natural state / True Will. It arises from 'nature'.
We, the created, are 'ALREADY uncreated' ???? We the created WERE uncreated ? Unite with the One? Forgotten our origins?
I thought you were a Daoist? Wouldn't that be unite with the None ? That's where the One comes from ... and nature ... and us (because ... believe it or not, we are PART of nature.)
But of course NONE of this will make sense here ... its the RW forum and I have been talking Thoth .... D-OH!
Margo9023
Sure; connection, coming together, complimenting ... but I have never had to 'SACRIFICE' anything, let alone 'the other' sacrificing a part of me (nor me sacrificing part of them) ...even when I 'SANCTIFY' something.
Maybe if I wasn't a wild pagan working with a 'raw power in nature' and had some idea that it needs to be sanctified by some Christian holy marriage concept a la 'Waite-a-bit'.
sanc·ti·fy Verb
1.Set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
2.Make legitimate or binding by religious sanction.
1. That's my understanding ... I use the force or power (shown in the 2 of cups) for a spiritual purpose (i.e. not to use aversly, hold power over someone, suppress development etc.) Chymical weddings and gnostic masses are forms to help us remember that natural sanctity ... they don't change nature and make it sanctified by the ritual IMO.
Being a Pan Theist I see all of nature as sanctified ... even two dogs f***ing ... its the warped un nature al human that de-sanctifies it from its natural state and tut tut and veils nature and throws buckets of water over it ... its all a bit unclean isn't it ... unless we add number 2 above... which is maybe what Waite is referring to ???
Sex is bad ... unless you get married ... it's still bad though unless you do it to make more members for the church and state
Ravenest, that was deep. I like your view. I'm no good with words but I didnt mean physically sacrifice. And your veiw is actually how I do see things. Maybe I see things in a strange way.- thought by others. And a little afraid to express my thoughts - as your very well with words. Now with 'Romero and Juliet' they SACRIFICED themselves in my eyes - I believe a mother as myself would SACRIFICE their life for her child. So there must be some type of sacrifice for the love of another being?????
Richard
Okay, call it union with the Nothing (the Ain of negative existence). There is still a distinction between the Emanations and That from which they emanate. (Taoism has no theology. It is existential.)
ravenest
Ravenest, that was deep. I like your view. I'm no good with words but I didnt mean physically sacrifice. And your veiw is actually how I do see things. Maybe I see things in a strange way.- thought by others. And a little afraid to express my thoughts - as your very well with words. Now with 'Romero and Juliet' they SACRIFICED themselves in my eyes - I believe a mother as myself would SACRIFICE their life for her child. So there must be some type of sacrifice for the love of another being?????
AH yes ... but THAT is do with the RESULT of the operation ... not during the creation of the operation.
Here is the difference; some see 2 of cups as love (but what does love actually mean?) here, I see it as the highest purest possible concept of the energy and desire of attraction of the two principles to create a third principle (or 'secondary unity' , they are put in a STATE of 'primary unity' but the result of the operation is to create 'another or new thing ' ... they are not re-creating an original state of non-duality).
We cant understand the ace as we are IN duality ... aces are beyond us. So we see the two of cups as love ... to be heretical and to give it a Thothy Thelemic slant Crowley talks about this force in its basic raw natural mode ... mother love comes after this ... it is love with accretion. Like I said (in gross form before) its not "I love a beer' type of love ... its not even romantic love, sacrificial love, motherly love, social love (eg. to preserve the 'tribe'; in some it is an instinct that instantly arises without thought to sacrifice the self for another in danger ... even in todays world and society ... even with an unknown person .)
However I admit this is not the normal view. Romeo and Juliet did make a big impact ... like the troubadours .. one of the first times in history sex, coupling and partnership was about the impetus of amore and not convention, arranged, organised, social marriage (Joseph Campbell has a good rave on the history of love and marriage and the troubadours in the Masks of God.)
For some, it's a good image as it is close as we can get.
We once did an exercise (in our hermetic group) about this. It goes like this;
Write down all the things you love ,,, then analyse it and turn it into a formula; e.g.
I love a beer after work = Love + reward + thirst relief + buzz + relaxation + whatever.
I love my kids = Love + protection of offspring + willing to sacrifice for their preservation + inheritance + genetic immortality + whatever your thing is ...
I love my wife = Love + security + comfort + sexual fulfilment + again whatever ...
Now, remove all the pluses ... whats left? IN some cases, nothing, love was a false idea, in other cases it is an undefinable ... something
It a challenging exercise as we all attach things that we often find hard to admit to and 'blame' 'just love'.
It probably doesn't matter, unless you want to work it in the 'inner sanctuary', then attachments to the worked energy can result in abortive attempts or worse 'give birth to monsters' as they say. Far fetched? ... ask anyone that ha been in a horrible relationship or marriage ... it started off with 'love with attachments'. The purer the energy and the less complexes attached to it the more chance the 'operation' has of succeeding.
ravenest
Well ... normally, being a Pan Theist I would dispute that.
But how can I after I just made this post
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=202606&page=5 post #43
... ye got me there !
ravenest
Margo9023 ; By the way I don't find that you lack words or there is any stupidity present ... far from it. Its just that the 'ravenest one of all the ravens' ( a joke with myself about my ego) slips into his rave nest when a gale has started blowing outside and gardening has been disrupted for the day.
I better watch out; Raven spun such a long, complex, self-witty, yarn to Zeus that he ended up losing his ability to si aaark arrk caw ?? Caaaw ...
I better watch out; Raven spun such a long, complex, self-witty, yarn to Zeus that he ended up losing his ability to si aaark arrk caw ?? Caaaw ...
ravenest
Addendum
The idea of 'love' in this inner sanctuary or marriage might be well represented by Venus 'in' Cancer ... Venus is the potion and Cancer the 'alembic'.
So although it is as 'pure' as we can get in the two it is still contained by the Cheth (fence, pen or enclosure, or ...? sanctuary, alembic).
Also of interest;
" The chet or chai is the traditional symbol of "Life" and, ironically, of "sin." It is also the sign of Transcendance and of Divine Grace, pointing to the possibility that a human being can transcend the limitations of physical existence." ( http://shekinah.elysiumgates.com/hebrew.html )
So although it is as 'pure' as we can get in the two it is still contained by the Cheth ... not just 'floating around in the air' .
The idea of 'love' in this inner sanctuary or marriage might be well represented by Venus 'in' Cancer ... Venus is the potion and Cancer the 'alembic'.
So although it is as 'pure' as we can get in the two it is still contained by the Cheth (fence, pen or enclosure, or ...? sanctuary, alembic).
Also of interest;
" The chet or chai is the traditional symbol of "Life" and, ironically, of "sin." It is also the sign of Transcendance and of Divine Grace, pointing to the possibility that a human being can transcend the limitations of physical existence." ( http://shekinah.elysiumgates.com/hebrew.html )
So although it is as 'pure' as we can get in the two it is still contained by the Cheth ... not just 'floating around in the air' .
Margo9023
Ravenest
H Ravenest! And, thank you. This I can understand better. I can relate to these examples completely. I'd like to try the above exercise above. How do you know if your left with anything or not after removing all the +'s?
Also, if a person(s) experience the 2 of Cups butttt...... then are separated for some odd reason beyond control against their wills - then what is it???? ---Is it pure love experienced before polluted?????
: )
AH yes ... but THAT is do with the RESULT of the operation ... not during the creation of the operation.
Here is the difference; some see 2 of cups as love (but what does love actually mean?) here, I see it as the highest purest possible concept of the energy and desire of attraction of the two principles to create a third principle (or 'secondary unity' , they are put in a STATE of 'primary unity' but the result of the operation is to create 'another or new thing ' ... they are not re-creating an original state of non-duality).
We cant understand the ace as we are IN duality ... aces are beyond us. So we see the two of cups as love ... to be heretical and to give it a Thothy Thelemic slant Crowley talks about this force in its basic raw natural mode ... mother love comes after this ... it is love with accretion. Like I said (in gross form before) its not "I love a beer' type of love ... its not even romantic love, sacrificial love, motherly love, social love (eg. to preserve the 'tribe'; in some it is an instinct that instantly arises without thought to sacrifice the self for another in danger ... even in todays world and society ... even with an unknown person .)
However I admit this is not the normal view. Romeo and Juliet did make a big impact ... like the troubadours .. one of the first times in history sex, coupling and partnership was about the impetus of amore and not convention, arranged, organised, social marriage (Joseph Campbell has a good rave on the history of love and marriage and the troubadours in the Masks of God.)
For some, it's a good image as it is close as we can get.
We once did an exercise (in our hermetic group) about this. It goes like this;
Write down all the things you love ,,, then analyse it and turn it into a formula; e.g.
I love a beer after work = Love + reward + thirst relief + buzz + relaxation + whatever.
I love my kids = Love + protection of offspring + willing to sacrifice for their preservation + inheritance + genetic immortality + whatever your thing is ...
I love my wife = Love + security + comfort + sexual fulfilment + again whatever ...
Now, remove all the pluses ... whats left? IN some cases, nothing, love was a false idea, in other cases it is an undefinable ... something
It a challenging exercise as we all attach things that we often find hard to admit to and 'blame' 'just love'.
It probably doesn't matter, unless you want to work it in the 'inner sanctuary', then attachments to the worked energy can result in abortive attempts or worse 'give birth to monsters' as they say. Far fetched? ... ask anyone that ha been in a horrible relationship or marriage ... it started off with 'love with attachments'. The purer the energy and the less complexes attached to it the more chance the 'operation' has of succeeding.
H Ravenest! And, thank you. This I can understand better. I can relate to these examples completely. I'd like to try the above exercise above. How do you know if your left with anything or not after removing all the +'s?
Also, if a person(s) experience the 2 of Cups butttt...... then are separated for some odd reason beyond control against their wills - then what is it???? ---Is it pure love experienced before polluted?????
: )
