Aces

[Vincent]

Perhaps Vincent should start a thread on the Golden Dawn symbolism in the RW?

Hmmmm... ok.

The topic you mention is rather broad. What particular facet of the subject did you have in mind?

I was hoping to find a thread about the aces, instead of a somewhat argumentative thread about the Golden Dawn

Did you disagree with anything that was being said, or are you are simply arguing that you dislike argument?

Not enlightening

I found a lot of what Kwaw had to say was interesting, particularly about the phallic symbolism of the Ace of Swords. I found out something that I wasn't really aware of. I'm sorry you didn't find it enlightening, but I am encouraged by the fact that you felt stongly enough to post a reply regarding your lack of enlightenment.

And I do not agree that the meaning of the cards are set in stone.

An observation that, even though I do not disagree with, might be worth commenting on;

Is there any meaning [for any of the cards] that could be considered wrong?

Is it possible for you, or me, to make a mistake in Tarot?

That has not been my personal experience.

Well, it really was a technical argument as to what Waite may, or may not, have intended by the inclusion, or maybe exclusion, of a particular symbol.

And, at the risk of being considered rude, what does your personal experience have to do with what Waite may, or may not, have intended with the symbolism he employed, in his deck of cards?


Vincent

 

[kwaw]

The reason I believe there are six Vaus are to draw our attention to Tiphareth, and all the symbolism that goes with it; colour of the Vaus, Ruach, The Son (and Sun) and especially the idea of the Princes (or Kings, in the Waite deck) place on the Tree.

The association with Tiphareth and Vau remains if we consider them as Yods, through their numeration 6 and 60 [6x10[value of the letter Yod], of which Waite says in "The Holy Kabbalah":

quote:
"...:it is said that the Messiah who is the Son of Joseph will be united - that is, in his mission - to the Son of David but will be slain. The one is the conquerer of the great Rome and the other of the little Rome - whatever the distinction between these cities may signify. The number 60 is fixed for the manifestation of the first and the number 6 for that of the second. I do not pretend to explain the mysticism of these numbers, but I note that the number 6 is represented by Vau and the Son of David is connected with this number."
end quote.

Certainly, the phallic symbolism should not be ignored, but I cant see that it inexorably leads to the your stated conclusion. Nevertheles, anything is possible.

One problem for this theory might be that there is no mention in Book 'T' of any of the symbolism you mention regarding Yod and Heh. If we take your theory as correct, we would surely have to wonder why Mathers thought it not worth mentioning to initiates in the document they received for study of the Tarot.

Why do you think it isn't mentioned in Book 'T'?

Vincent

Book T provides the symbols but in no way exhausts the meanings or associations of those symbols. I have no doubt that Waite was aware of the phallic symolism of yod, vau and heh, the sword and crown. I would refer you to his 'Holy Kabbalah', particularly in this context to those sections on the Covenant with Abraham, the Coming of the Messiah, the Mystery of the Shekinah and the Mystery of Sex.

In connection with the above mention 6 being particularly relevant to the Son of David in the Zohar, Zoharic exegesis on Cant.3:11 "O maidens of Zion, go forth and forth and gaze upon King Solomon, wearing the crown that his mother gave him", is almost wholly sexually symbolic and makes clear the connection between the 'crown' and both the Shekinah and the corona of the penis, the covenant of circumcision and the hierogamany of bride and bridegroom. Moreover it speaks of the 'crowns' [plural] of the king, and the crown or corona of the penis is symbolised by the letter yod, thus we may say that there are seven crowns on the ace of swords, six being symbolised by the six yods, refering to the 'corona' of the son and bridegroom, and the picture of the crown itself, representing 'aterah' the crown Malkuth and bride, from the sides of which hang two stylised strands of vegetation, like the 'wings of the shekinah' under which bride and bridegroom are united.

Kwaw

 

[knightofrainbows]

i think the aces are like neo in the matrix, there special but they dont know it