An unknown old Conver deck?

[Premdas]

Hello everybody

I wonder if anyone of you have ever heard M. Camoin said on his website that the well known Conver deck published by Heron and conserved by the BNF isn't from the XVIII° century as everyone thought, but from the XVIIII°.

M.Camoin also said that he possesses one Conver deck from the XVIII°, and that he will put some pictures of it on his website, but saddly he didn't. He said that one arcana has been published in the Purple Fashion Magazine, along with an interview of Jodorowsky and himself (see below, his commentary in french, and in the next post the same commentary graciously translated in english by Bernice).

M Camoin said:

"Par exemple, tout le monde croyait que le plus ancien exemplaire du Tarot de Nicolas Conver de 1760 était conservé à la Bibliothèque Nationale de Paris. Tous les auteurs l'ont utilisé comme référence. Pourtant, cet exemplaire date du 19e siècle et non pas du 18e siècle. Il n'y avait aucun exemplaire connu du 18e siècle. Et pourtant, j'en possède un.
Il s'agit du plus ancien exemplaire du Tarot de Nicolas Conver. J'essaierai d'en mettre quelques images sur mon site. En attendant, vous pourrez en voir une carte dans le prochain numéro du magazine Purple Fashion qui sortira en anglais et en français avec une interview d'Alexandre Jodorowsky et de moi-même."

The link to the related post in Camoin's Forum is:
http://www.camoin.com/tarot-forum/question-a-camoin-tarot-retrouve-par-jodo-au-mexique-t2570.html


My questions are:

I wonder how M. Camoin can say that the BNF Conver published by Heron isn't from 1760 as it is writen on the two of Coins ? If you have an idea about that...

Has anybody heard about the deck M. Camoin is speaking about, or seen the arcana published in Purple Fashion?

Thank you guys!

 

[Bernice]

To clarify, this is a translation of the quoted text by M. Camoin

"For example, everyone believed that the more former copy of the Tarot of Nicolas Conver of 1760 was preserved to the National Library of Paris. All the authors used it as reference.
Nevertheless, this copy dates back to the 19E century and not of the 18E century.
There was not any known copy of the 18E century. And nevertheless, I in possesses one. It is a matter of the more former copy of the Tarot of Nicolas Conver. I will try of some to put some pictures on my site. While awaiting, you will be able visible a card in the next number of the magazine Purple Fashion that go out in English and in French with an interview of Alexander Jodorowsky and of myself."

Bee

 

[Moonbow]

Premdas, thanks very much for bringing this to our attention, and for sharing Philippe Camoin's post with us. I would love to see scans of an 18c Conver, shame he didn't go ahead and post them. Is it possible for you to question him about the 1760 Heron?

 

[Bertrand]

Good evening,

I may be wrong here since I only recall it from memory and from posts on internet forums that may be only rumors, but I seem to remember someone stating that the said Conver deck owned by Philippe Camoin is the one (incomplete) that was sold for 16110 € at an auction in Paris back on march 28th 2009.

If that is the one, the Tarot was dated as follows:

Nicolas Conver, Marseille, fin du XVIIIe s. (avant 1808 – bois daté 1760), grav.
sur bois, couleurs au pochoir, 71/78 c. (mq atouts VI, X et XVI, CB, AD, 9D, 7C),

which translates roughly to

Nicolas Conver, Marseille, end of XVIIIe s. (before 1808 – date on wood : 1760), woodcut, stencil colored, 71/78 c. (missing : trumps VI, X et XVI ; knight of bâtons, ace of bâtons, nine of deniers, seven of coupes),

so the datation stays a little bit approximative, maybe XVIIIth century but also maybe early XIXth (which IMO isn't a big deal).

The expert for the auction was the extremely trustworthy Thierry Depaulis who stays careful on the datation since - although the auctionned deck was titled 'XVIIIth century' - he takes the precaution to extend the possible date to 1808.

Once again I'm in no way certain that this deck was bought by PC, but I seem to remember it was so. As his affirmation on his forum is dated from july 2009 that's a possibility.

For sure, Nicolas Conver experts on this board are able to give us the crusty details that make possible this 1808 date (and I'm pretty sure this has been discussed at some moment on this very forum), so any pointers are welcome !

Bertrand

 

[Bertrand]

NB as a side note I should also add the report from the auction which stated that this Conver deck has been

acquis par une famille
marseillaise héritière de ce maître cartier,

bought by a marseillese family, heirs of this famous cardmaker

Bertrand

 

[thinbuddha]

All of the Conver decks have the same date on them- they only made the woodcut once. I have one from the late 1960's that has the same date......

 

[Premdas]

Moonbow said: Premdas, thanks very much for bringing this to our attention, and for sharing Philippe Camoin's post with us. I would love to see scans of an 18c Conver, shame he didn't go ahead and post them. Is it possible for you to question him about the 1760 Heron?

Hello Moonbow, I opened a new thread on P. Camoin 's forum to ask him if he will soon display some arcana of that deck as he promised in summer 2009; but the "Majordome" of the forum removed momentaneously that thread because P. Camoin is travelling now and cannot answer, as he told me in a private message.

I ll tell you when the thread will be active on Camoin's forum, soon I hope.

Bertrand, thank you for your help, I try to find if I can find something about that auction. It seems that the "marseillese family, heirs of this famous cardmaker" is probably P. Camoin as I don't see another "Conver's heir". One remark: as that auction went on 2009, at least we know that P. Camoin didn't use such an old Conver's deck to make his own TdM version.

 

[Premdas]

I found that:

http://www.piasa.fr/pdf/20090328.pdf
http://www.piasa.auction.fr/pdf/20090328resultats.pdf

In the first file it is said that all the Conver's decks seems to date from the XIX°, despite the inscription on the Two of Coins... So that remark is also valid for the deck sold in the Piasa auctions on march 2009, probably by Camoin if Bertrand is right (and that fact is certified by Yves Le Marseillais in http://traditiontarot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=5931 , post #8; I think he speaks about that deck when he says "the purchase of Philippe Tourrasse alias Camoin in last March in Paris for 17 000 €uros", even if that price is higher than the 16110 € mentionned by Piasa)...

In fact, looking to the few cards displayed on those PDF files, it seems that deck is similar to the one conserved at the BNF and published by Heron, just the colors seems brighter.

 

[Bertrand]

Hello,

All of the Conver decks have the same date on them- they only made the woodcut once. I have one from the late 1960's that has the same date......

that's for certain, as is certain that Thierry Depaulis is aware of that fact !
The date is gives is certainly based on other details (a pedigree for the deck or visual details, that I don't know)

Bertrand

 

[Bertrand]

Hello again,

In the first file it is said that all the Conver's decks seems to date from the XIX°, despite the inscription on the Two of Coins... So that remark is also valid for the deck sold in the Piasa auctions on march 2009

Not exactly : the text reads

Rare sinon unique ex. antérieur à 1800 (sans la mention FRANCE sur les têtes)

which translates to

Rare if not unique copy made prior to 1800 (without the word France on the court cards)

this can be seen on the BNF valet de bâtons :

so that is probably (one of) the details which can date this deck.

Bertrand