Beginner's Reflections: Ace of Wands [Baston]

[Centaur]

Beginner's Reflections: Ace of Wands

Feel free to move this thread if it would be better suited somewhere else. I did search for any similar threads, but could not find any.

I was looking at this card earlier and I noted my first impressions. It almost looks as though the hand is emerging from a burning sun... I jotted down, 'the presentation of fire' for some reason. I also note that there appears to be a red bracelet around the wrist... so I am thinking, 'Is this a bracelet? Or is this just the clothing of the individual? And does it have any relevance?'.

Also, what are those little 'bits' which fall around the wand? They look almost like leaves or bursts of energy.

I counted these and noted that they amounted to 29. So... some basic addition:

2 + 9 = 11 = Strength

Could this have any relevance?

Also:

1 + 1 = 2 = The High Priestess

Again, could this have any relevance?

I would associate this card with energy, therefore I am thinking that perhaps Strength and the High Priestess could both be conceived as manifestations of energy. The energy depicted in the Strength card, could perhaps be argued to be an external manifestation of energy, whereas the energy depicted in the High Priestess could be argued to be a manifestation of inner, perhaps psychic/intuitive energy. Therefore the Ace of Wands as depicted as the manifestation of energy, both internally and externally.

Also, I feel that the High Priestess could suggest unharnessed or unknown potential, and the Strength card might reflect the mastering of that potential.

Anyway, to summarise, my thoughts on the Ace of Wands are spurned from my knowledge of the RW system, and also from some numerical calculations.

Now, have I finally gone insane? LOL.

 

[jmd]

Various Marseille decks have various number of 'energy flames', 'yods', or stylised leaves depicted on the Ace.

For example, the Dodal has 32 (an important Kabalistic number); the Hadar has 30; the Conver, Camoin and the Piatnik each have, as you mention, 29; whereas the Vieville only has 24...

Also, it is worth comparing the representation of the Ace of Batons with the Ace of Swords, so as to carefully observe, if one is going to make elemental atttributions to the suits, to which (or either, none or both) Fire best suits (excuse the pun).

What is also worth noting is the direction from which comes the hand, and which hand it is. In most, it is the RIGHT hand, though here, as in a number of other instance, the Vieville seems to be lacking is his care, for he depicts the left hand holding the Baston.

Of significance, in only the Dodal and the Camoin (for once, the Camoin seems to be the closest to the Dodal in this), there appears to be some form of blade, or curved semi-folded leaf arising on the right of the club. The Camoin is represented in a fashion which makes the 'leaf' view more difficult to see.

Though both the Ace of Swords and this Ace are generally (apart from the examplar exception I note) held with the right hand, the more common representation of the Ace of swords has the hand emanating from the left of the card - we thus see the back of the hand, whereas for the Batons, emanating from the right of the card, we see the (closed over) palm of the right hand.

It is as if, one can more easily imagine, the Ace of Bastons is possibly offered to the viewer, whereas the Ace of Swords is shown or displayed.

Both the red wrists and the 'solar' spiritual aureole from which the hand seems to appear are reminiscent of depictions of either divine faces or hands appearing from the sky in numerous mediaeval depictions, indicating that here is not necessarily the holding of the implement by a person, but as an abstract force or implement - and in the case of the Bastons, relatively unformed (compare also the ways the Bastons tend to become more cultivated, formed or worked as one progresses through especially the court cards of the suit).

With regards to numerological additions, I am often personally reluctant to use the Hindo-Arabic system (1, 2, 3, ...) when using the Marseille - though many have found it also useful.

Great to read personal and insightful reflections...

 

[Diana]

Re: Beginner's Reflections: Ace of Wands

Centaur, this is not an answer to your questions or reflections. But please note that if you are talking about a Tarot of Marseilles deck, there is NO High Priestess. There are no Wands either. (Nor Pentacles....).

The Wands, High Priestesses, Pentacles and what-not are in the more modern decks that come out of the Golden Dawn tradition.

No, I am not nit-picking. Definitely not. I am just setting the record straight. Words are important. If we talk of Wands and High Priestesses, we are no longer in the Tarot of Marseille, nor are we in any of the Historical Decks.

In the Rider Waite Study Group, I have never seen anyone calling the High Priestess a Papess, nor the round things Coins. In the Thoth deck, we don't call card XI Strength, but Lust.

So let's call things by their names.

Your very interesting reflections deserve a lot of thought and I plan to get back to them this evening after work. Thank you for them - it's amazing the details one finds on just one card and all the questions that arise from it.

 

[Centaur]

Diana,

I have explained in other threads that I am using RW and Thoth meanings with these cards. This is my approach to the Marseille. Therefore my threads will focus on it from THAT perspective.

You have your perspective and I have mine. I respect your opinion, and I hope that you respect mine. I thought that this issue had been clarified on previous threads?

'In the Rider Waite Study Group, I have never seen anyone calling the High Priestess a Papess, nor the round things Coins. In the Thoth deck, we don't call card XI Strength, but Lust.'

If it makes it easier for you, then I shall refer to the cards by the names on the cards. But I will be relying quite heavily on RW and Thothian systems of interpretation in my postings. I know that you are not nit-picking, but to me it just seems to me that nearly ever recent Marseille thread has turned into a forum for this very same debate.

Please be clear on my stance on the Marseille.

Jmd, some very interesting thoughts. I will respond to them at a later point. I just wanted to quickly add this post to make my stance on the Marseille clear.

 

[Mimers]

I am looking at my Dodal and I see the blade that jmd is speaking of. Which version do you have Centaur? In the Dodal it has a rather jagged edge. It is also quite interesting to note that the swords and batons are the only aces with a hand in the picture. As if they are offerings of some kind. Both wrists are surrounded by a red bracelet, a very fancy cuff, and also a burst of light.

The position of the hands I find very intriguing. that the palm is exposed on one side and not on the other. It is like you are getting the view from the other side.

The swords are much more elaborate than the wands too.

Mimi

 

[jmd]

For those who have neither the Camoin nor the Dodal, I have attached the Dodal version, which shows that 'jagged blade' on the upper right-side portion of the 'club'.

For what it's worth, it is also worth noting that the number of 'cuts' upon the Baston itself is not consistent, though it seems to principally depict three or four visible sections.

One thing which I have for a long time been struck about is that each of those sections (three on the attached Dodal) seem to depict each as though the plant has had the opportunity of healing each cut somewhat prior to finally being chopped.

The clarity of the green upon the stem also suggests that this piece of wood has not had a chance to brown with age yet... ie, it still contains the etheric life-force which provided it with its vertical growth towards the Light of the Sun.

 

[full deck]

This may seem silly but . . .

I'm curious, the "jagged" item that JMD attached looks like part of an oak leaf to me. I seen a type of oak that has that kind of serated edge before. Could this not be such? That would certainly fit the description of a freshly-cut club (wand).

 

[Diana]

it just seems to me that nearly ever recent Marseille thread has turned into a forum for this very same debate.

Nope, I checked most of the recent threads in the Historical Section. Must be your imagination. There are few where I have brought up this subject.

As to the number of yods on the different decks. As they more or less all seem to vary in number, I have come to the conclusion that the number itself is not necessarily of great historical interest - and when I say historical, I mean also Esoteric - because the esoterism in the Marseille has its roots in History obviously. However, I think their number could be of interest when one is using the cards for divination or fortune telling or for readings. I think when it comes to divination, any sign that is found on the card can be significant. That is why the cards come up in a reading - so that we can relate them to our present situation, or the situation of the querent. So I do think that any sign that seems important to the Reader should not be ignored. They are messages. Up to us to figure out what the message is. The Ancients lead us to the water, but they cannot make us drink.

Linking the numbers to the Papess or Strength or whatever on a "permanent basis", I mean, making it part of one's permanent understanding of the card, well, that seems to be quite a big leap of faith and personally, I wouldn't push things that far. I think the Ace of Batons is a powerful enough card to more or less stand in its own right. It is however very interesting to compare it to the Baton that the Bateleur holds - seeing as he is the one who originally is given the seed of the Four Elements of the minors - he is asked to plant them and make sure they grow.

 

[Centaur]

Both the red wrists and the 'solar' spiritual aureole from which the hand seems to appear are reminiscent of depictions of either divine faces or hands appearing from the sky in numerous mediaeval depictions, indicating that here is not necessarily the holding of the implement by a person, but as an abstract force or implement - and in the case of the Bastons, relatively unformed (compare also the ways the Bastons tend to become more cultivated, formed or worked as one progresses through especially the court cards of the suit).

Interesting. I have always felt that the hand appearing from out of thin-air is representative of Universal energy, or spirit. It is life itself... the stuff that we all originate from. The idea of these as perhaps linked to medieval depictions of a perhaps spiritual and non-human-physical form melds very well with my approach.

It is as if, one can more easily imagine, the Ace of Bastons is possibly offered to the viewer, whereas the Ace of Swords is shown or displayed.

I too thought that. Again, interesting.

Originally posted by MimersI am looking at my Dodal and I see the blade that jmd is speaking of. Which version do you have Centaur?

I have the Fournier.

I have taken a look at the Dodal version, and I see the 'blade'. It appears to be a leaf. Could this perhaps symbolise new growth or new beginnings? To me, this would seem to make sense. Is it only the Dodal or Camoin which depicts this leaf?

Originally posted by jmdThe clarity of the green upon the stem also suggests that this piece of wood has not had a chance to brown with age yet... ie, it still contains the etheric life-force which provided it with its vertical growth towards the Light of the Sun.

I like that. This etheric life-force in question, I would consider to be the same stuff of what the hand is made of... a non-physical and universal flow of energy.

Originally posted by full deckI'm curious, the "jagged" item that JMD attached looks like part of an oak leaf to me. I seen a type of oak that has that kind of serated edge before. Could this not be such? That would certainly fit the description of a freshly-cut club (wand).

Do you mean for beating people with? Hehehe.

 

[full deck]

El Kabong . . .

Do you mean for beating people with? Hehehe.

Sure, it's much more idyllic than a lead pipe.
Welcome to the club . . .