Besançon / Marseille Cards Question

HarryHoudini

I was going through my magic collection and ran across some Tarot cards. From what I've learned from this great site, they look-like they are from around 1760. They are hand painted, front and back. I scanned 3 of them, but I don't know how to post it here. I can email them to you and that would make it much easier for you to understand what I have.

If you have any idea of when they were made, worth, etc., I would appreciate anything you can come up with. I collect Houdini related and conjuring items, so these cards are way out of my scope.

Thanks In Advance,
Kevin
 

jmd

I attach below the scans of the back, I Le Bateleur and XI La Force for others' identification.

I have not checked through either the Encyclopedia nor through DePaulis's book yet, but thought I'd rather brashly post my impressions.

Of course, looking at a few other cards would help enormously - especially such that contain usual indicators: such as the 2 Deniers/Coins, 2 Cups, and VII Le Chariot and a few others to check for influences from regions or other artists.

Based on the apparent quality and imprint, I suggest a probably mid 1800s print from a woodcut made in either Lyon or Avignon areas (I am being brash here, and will very likely be shown to be inaccurate with further descriptions or scans). I base this simply and solely on the depiction on the right-hand side of the table of the Bateleur: it is definitely not a bag, but rather what appears to be half-way between book and box.

The 'Lion' of La Force displays likewise some characteristics reminiscent of further-north-than-Marseille influence.

As to what they are worth, this is a far more difficult question, as it does partly depend on dating, but also on assumptions about the completeness of the deck and quality of all cards (I presume the deck has its full 78 cards, and that each is roughly of the depicted quality).

If such is the case, and if the woodblock dates from the 18th century, with the imprint from the 19th, I suggest a value (partly based on the price of a few recent sales on e.bay) between US $500 and AU $1000 - probably edging towards the latter.

As the deck does not appear to be either a Conver nor Dodal, I would be very interested in seeing who it stems from (the 2 Deniers/Coins will probably reveal this).

Looking forward to further seeing bits and pieces of this deck... actually, I wouldn't mind obtaining it for... errrr.... better identification purposes... it may take a few years.... or decades. Let me know, and I'll send you my postal address :D:D:D
 

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jmd

Thankyou zorya... The TarotHermit site is always such a pleasure to visit.

The Benois version is part of what was at the back of my mind (without having at first mentally indentified it - so thanks) to indeed suspect a more northern influence - but the 'Lion' of La Force is distinctly different...
 

HarryHoudini

Does "The Salvatorian Fathers of Wisconsin" or "Mrs. L.E. Pindat" help solve this puzzle? The above is on the envelope the cards are in.

I'm way out of my league with you experts!

Thanks,
Kevin
 

Paul

Well, I've got the Besancon in my collection. I've scanned it in. Le Bateleur looked promising, until I saw La Force -- not so much lipstick on the lion.

At any rate, if it is "Besancon" or within its family, II will be titled "Junon," which may look like "JVNON" and V will be "Jupiter".

Kevin, can you take a peek at these cards so we can eliminate the Swiss-style decks?

I also have the Piatnik and have posted them, as well.

I posted the cards equivalent to those jmd has attached.
 

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jmd

I was not familiar with either, but a quick google search for the former suggests a dating from between 1840s to 1909... so the deck, if associated, may very well be from the same period (probably the earlier part of this 70 year span).

I've taken my Encyclopedias out, and will see if there is a Besançon version with similar characteristics as La Force you have provided...

Paul: your 'Lion' is different.
 

Rusty Neon

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jmd

I had already suggested to HarryHoudini in an email that a number of specific cards would help, including the 2 Coins (also previously mentioned), the 2 Cups (for similar reasons), VII the Chariot for the initials (if any), and a few other cards to assess influences from various directions (Belgium, Spain, etc).

With the scans below, we now at least know that the woodblock was made in 1752, and was probably later altered to remove (carve out) its original producer at a later date - bringing the likelihood of this imprint to the 1800s +.

XIII is clearly Marseille patterning, so again confirming the 'Besançon' style.

Chances are, given the alteration on the 2 Deniers (Coins), the 2 Cups and VII Chariot woodblocks would likewise have been altered were they to have included any identification details. Another hint I did not mention in the email is perhaps the 'shield' in the centre of the 4 Deniers (Coins).

Wonderful deck to have, HarryHoudini!
 

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HarryHoudini

Wow! I'm having an information overload! I have to re-read this thread again to let more sink in. I sent another scan to see if that would help or hurt.

If anyone out there has Houdini or Conjuring matrerial for sale or trade, these cards could be available.