Book "T" (edited) The 36 Pips

[kwaw]

Utterly impossible, since Wynn Wescott had only just translated
the Sepher Yetzerah (see last chapter of Mathers "The Tarot").
You'll need to put the horse before the cart to haul that wagon.

Presuming you mean Mathers "The Tarot: Its Occult Signification, Use in Fortune-Telling, and Method of Play" (1888) which for anyone interested in available online here:

http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Archives/Matherstarot.htm

I take it you are referring to the paragraph:

"The Sepher Yetzirah referred to in the above quotation has been recently translated by my friend Dr. Wynn Westcott, who is a skilful and erudite Qabalistical student, so that it can now be read in English."

Refering to Westcott's translation of the Sepher Yetzira which was published in 1887. Firstly, I don't see how Book T is necessarily dependent upon Westcott's English translation of the Sepher Yetzira (Mathers was capable of reading the Latin versions), would you care to demonstrate why you believe that? And even if it does, not only was it published prior to the writing of Book T anyhow, but was known by students of esoteric bodies before that as Westcott used it as the basis of lectures prior to its publication. In the introduction to the revised edition of 1893 he writes:

"The substance of this little volume was read as Lecture before the Hermetic Society of London in the summer of 1886, Dr. Anna Kingsford, President, in the chair. Some of the notes were the explanations given verbally, and subsequently in writing, to members of the Society who asked for information upon abstruse points in the 'Sepher,' and for collateral doctrines; others, of later date, are answers which have been given to enquiring Theosophists, and members of the Hermetic G. D."

The horse, as you put it, is before the cart.

Timeline:
1886 Westcotte lectures to members of several Hermetic and Theosophical societies upon the Kabbalah and the Sepher Yetzira [using his own translation].
1887 Kabbalah Unveiled translated by MacGregor Mathers.
1887 Tabula Bembina by William Wynn Westcott (Bath) with correspondences based upon the Gra version of the SY [decker suggests it is the essay by Westcott that forms the basis for the correspondences of the El Gran Esoterico tarot deck]
1887 Sepher Yetzira translation by Willian Wynn Westcott published (Bath).
1887 Westcott obtains papers from Mrs. Mackenzie and soon after asks Mathers to help him write up rituals based upon a cypher manuscript. And asks Mathers and Woodman to join him in the formation of an order based upon said rituals and teachings.
1888 The Tarot: Its Occult Signification, Use in Fortune Telling, and Method of Play, Etc. by MacGregor Mathers.
1888 Founding of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn on March 1. By the end of the year there are 33 members in the London Isis-Uranis Temple (9 woman and 23 men) and 2 other temples established, the Osiris at Weston-Supermare and Horus at Bradford.
c.1888 - 1894* Book T, using the correspondences of the cipher manuscript, written by Mathers and privately circulated to members of the order of the G.D.
1892 Ahathoor Temple in Paris established
1893 Amen-Ra Temple in Edinburgh established.

Kwaw
*edited to extend date range within period given by 'Teheuti' in follow up post, more likely Mary considers between 1892 at earliest to '94.

 

[Fulgour]

Refering to Westcott's translation of the Sepher Yetzira which was published in 1887. Firstly, I don't see how Book T is necessarily dependent upon Westcott's English translation of the Sepher Yetzira (Mathers was capable of reading the Latin versions), would you care to demonstrate why you believe that?

For starters, how does any body get "journey by water" from
"Tiphareth of HB:V" unless they're looking at Pamela's design?

 

[firecatpickles]

It's a commonly accepted axiom by historians that usually it's the simplest explanations that are most likely to be true, rather than convoluted conspiracy theories with no evidence to support them.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 1859-1930)

 

[Lee]

For starters, how does any body get "journey by water" from
"Tiphareth of HB:V" unless they're looking at Pamela's design?

Nobody has claimed that Book T is the sole source for the RWS pictures. Waite took his meanings from several sources. In this case, both Mathers and Etteilla had mentioned travel, voyage, passage, etc.

-- Lee

 

[Lee]

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 1859-1930)

Hi kilts_knave, this is a good point! But in this particular case, the origins of the divinatory meanings assigned to the RWS cards by its creators, and the factors that went into its creation, are not really in controversy. The major facts are agreed upon by tarot historians (such as Dummett, O'Neill, Greer, Place, etc.). So, far from being eliminated as impossible, the commonly-accepted facts are agreed upon by almost everyone. All of the written evidence that we have accords with the commonly-accepted view and there is no evidence whatsoever (or at least none that I am aware of) that supports other theories. If anyone knows of any such evidence, I would be glad to see it and consider it!

-- Lee

 

[firecatpickles]

Well then the most improbable thing about it is only probable. No conspiracies.

 

[Teheuti]

c.1888 Book T, using the correspondences of the cipher manuscript, written by Mathers and privately circulated to members of the order of the G.D.

Book T was comprised of manuscripts N, O, P, Q, R, and an unlettered T.A.M. instruction - which were given only to members of the 2nd (Inner) Order. The first 2nd Order initiations (Annie Horniman and Florence Farr) were in December 1891. So it is only AFTER this date that manuscripts A through Z would have been distributed (in order from A to Z). The "Flying Rolls" which included commentary on ritual techniques by Inner Order members were dated from Nov. 1892 to Nov. 1894 (with an additional Roll dated 1897).

Based on the amount of work that Mathers would have been doing in order to refine the Outer Order Rituals with all their instruction papers and the first of the Inner Order Rituals, it seems more likely that Book T (N-R) would have been composed around 1891-1892 at the earliest. Furthermore, it reveals an entirely different take and thoroughly experienced development (see "Opening of the Key") regarding the Tarot than is evidenced by Mathers' earlier, publically published booklet, The Tarot, which is based largely on Etteilla.

A piece of Book T, on the Major Arcana, was probably added later by Soror Q.L. (Quaero Lucem), Mrs. Ethel Felkin. Descriptions of the cards in this section match the Whare Ra Golden Dawn deck.

[As mentioned, most of Book T was published by Crowley. Then 200 copies, including the Felkin text, were printed by Helios Book Service in 1967.]

It's possible to trace elements of many different tarot authors in Waite's book, although Etteilla/D'Ouducet are easily discernable.

Mary

 

[kwaw]

Book T was comprised of manuscripts N, O, P, Q, R, and an unlettered T.A.M. instruction - which were given only to members of the 2nd (Inner) Order. The first 2nd Order initiations (Annie Horniman and Florence Farr) were in December 1891. So it is only AFTER this date that manuscripts A through Z would have been distributed (in order from A to Z). The "Flying Rolls" which included commentary on ritual techniques by Inner Order members were dated from Nov. 1892 to Nov. 1894 (with an additional Roll dated 1897).

Mary

Sounds about right to me Mary, still well before the Waite/Smith deck, and not after as Fulgour appears to be suggesting.

May I recommend anyone going over to my previous link at the Hermetic Golden Org link to view Mathers 1888 Tarot here:

http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Archives/Matherstarot.htm

Also take a look at your excellent essay on the Women of the Golden Dawn at the same site here:

http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/GDwomen.htm

I vaguely recall reading or hearing somewhere that it was one of the Golden Dawn woman [involved with the sphere group and Yeats] whom Waite got the Celtic Cross spread from, do you know anything about that?

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

For starters, how does any body get "journey by water" from
"Tiphareth of HB:V" unless they're looking at Pamela's design?

Mathers in his 1888 'Tarot' gives voyage, travel; and Etteilla gives journey.

Villa Revak does a comparitive study between Mather's 1888 Tarot, Etteilla and the PKT here:

http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm

http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_13.htm

The Etteilla source for some of the DMs of Mathers Tarot are also to be found in Book T. As well as Etteilla influencing the DM's of book T are the meanings of the decans as given in Agrippa to which each card is attributed. Uri Raz has completed a comparitive table between Agrippa's decans and the DMs of Book T here:

http://www.tarot.org.il/decans.html

Kwaw

 

[Teheuti]

I vaguely recall reading or hearing somewhere that it was one of the Golden Dawn woman [involved with the sphere group and Yeats] whom Waite got the Celtic Cross spread from, do you know anything about that?

It was Florence Farr and noted in an article in The Occult Review by John Brodie-Innes. However, it just says that Brodie-Innes learned it from Farr as "a non-order method" - that is, it could be used outside the order vows of silence.

Mary