Huck
Chess as a factor in the origin of Tarot(Hucks post 5 =software hitch)
Originally Posted by Rosanne in Artist and Patron
.. .-) ... Huck didn't always try to show, that the game was devised from chess.
Research has a development. From the beginnings of Trionfi.com on (2003, actually the theory is based on developments in May 1989) it was suspected, that the Cary-Yale Tarocchi had been a construction influenced by chess. The article of 2003 is still untouched there ...
http://trionfi.com/0/c/30/
... though modificated in the outfit, as the old geocities page has disappeared.
Well, the situation of the Cary-Yale was difficult to get sure about it. As it was assumed, that one could relative clearly say, that the original Bembo game had a 5x14-structure, it became a logical idea, that the Cary-Cale, a little bit earlier than the Bembo cards, had a 5x16-structure. As Filippo Maria Visconti was said to have loved chess, this seemed a plausible idea.
However, the Cary-Yale has only 11 trumps surviving, so 5 must have been reconstructed ... an naturally, the result was, that one could only suggest ideas, "how it might have been", with many insecurities, not really strong hypotheses.
In the personal evaluation of the chances, that all this was true, something of 20-30% was calculated for the reconstruction of the Cary-Yale in it's basis form (less in its specifications), which is nothing comparable to the 5x14-theory related to the Bembo cards, which was calculated with 99% and better.
The 5x14-theory was - as expected - further confirmed (only the major points) ...
1. when the note of 1.1.1441 was found ("14 figure")
2. when the note of 1457 was found (70 cards)
3. When it turned out, that the terminus "Ludus triumphorum" could be used in the context of the Michelino deck in 1449 and so also with decks, which hadn't the structure 4x14+22
... and with each other peace of researched information, which didn't contradict the basis hypothesis.
The Cary-Yale theory made less progress, only in side points ...
1. the Michelino deck had 16 trumps, could be called somehow a Trionfi deck (though very different) and could be considered a forerunner of Cary-Yale, as it was produced by the same man and court. As the Michelino deck clearly had 16 special catds, why shouldn't it be plausible, that Cary-Yale had an orientation towards a 5x16-structure?
2. the Ingold deck, described 1432, had 8 trumps, one of the 8 figures a woman ... as it appears in chess.
3. The Imperatori cards in Ferrara 1423 had 8 trumps.
4. The Karnöffel game seemed to have a relative clear relation
5. The enthusiasm of Johannes of Rheinfelden clearly relates to the condition that Johannes sees parallels to the chess game.
... till the point, when it became clear, that the Charles VI, considered earlier to be generally from "Ferrara and from ca. 1470" possibly was "from Florence and earlier than 1470". This happened winter 2008/2009.
If it was earlier, then securely it should relate to the oldest decks and the probability was rather high, that it hadn't 22 special cards.
So it got a new focus, and then it was easy to recognize, that there were 16 special cards and the easiest solution for this was ... this was a complete trump set with one additional court card figure to give an orientation, how the small arcana might look like.
The "number 16" had with this 3 examples in the early Trionfi card world: Michelino deck, Cary-Yale and Michelino deck, somehow a true opponent to that what was known about the 4x14-theory: note from 1.1.1441 (14 figure), note from 1457 (70 cards) and the 70 cards from the Bembo cards itself ... both appearing in 3 versions, all "with some evidence" either appearing in real cards or as notes in documents.
Well, and it was assumed, that, if Cary-Yale was related to chess, then it should likely be possible to arrange the Charles VI trumps in a similar way.
Well ... it was possible.
Since then some further development took place, and already it's considered (and likely it will take place) to alter the major line of the Trionfi.com exploration: Instead of "5x14-theory" one should speak of "Chess Tarot".
Meanwhile the "5x14-theory" itself, somehow hampered by general scepticism about theories, which didn't appear in books, and generally missing interests in the English language world, had found some acceptance in Italy. "Among other things I believe in the validity of his 5x14 theory on the number of original Trionfi", Andrea Vitali noted, in Italian "Fra l'altro, ritengo valida la sua teoria del 5 X 14 riguardante il numero dei Trionfi in origine"
So things develop ...
Originally Posted by Rosanne in Artist and Patron
Nah maybe not 20/21 steps to start with anyway. I think the game was devised from chess as Huck has always tried to show. I guess, if I was devising something that would interest the elite I would use something that was already understand as a frame work. My brother uses a card game for his business effectiveness programmes. He nicked the idea off me with Tarot. The people to be entertained by a patron's family were not likely to play dice against the church wall.
Interesting thought though this political agenda via a game.
I am not sure if it would run really though...have to think about it some more.
~Rosanne
.. .-) ... Huck didn't always try to show, that the game was devised from chess.
Research has a development. From the beginnings of Trionfi.com on (2003, actually the theory is based on developments in May 1989) it was suspected, that the Cary-Yale Tarocchi had been a construction influenced by chess. The article of 2003 is still untouched there ...
http://trionfi.com/0/c/30/
... though modificated in the outfit, as the old geocities page has disappeared.
Well, the situation of the Cary-Yale was difficult to get sure about it. As it was assumed, that one could relative clearly say, that the original Bembo game had a 5x14-structure, it became a logical idea, that the Cary-Cale, a little bit earlier than the Bembo cards, had a 5x16-structure. As Filippo Maria Visconti was said to have loved chess, this seemed a plausible idea.
However, the Cary-Yale has only 11 trumps surviving, so 5 must have been reconstructed ... an naturally, the result was, that one could only suggest ideas, "how it might have been", with many insecurities, not really strong hypotheses.
In the personal evaluation of the chances, that all this was true, something of 20-30% was calculated for the reconstruction of the Cary-Yale in it's basis form (less in its specifications), which is nothing comparable to the 5x14-theory related to the Bembo cards, which was calculated with 99% and better.
The 5x14-theory was - as expected - further confirmed (only the major points) ...
1. when the note of 1.1.1441 was found ("14 figure")
2. when the note of 1457 was found (70 cards)
3. When it turned out, that the terminus "Ludus triumphorum" could be used in the context of the Michelino deck in 1449 and so also with decks, which hadn't the structure 4x14+22
... and with each other peace of researched information, which didn't contradict the basis hypothesis.
The Cary-Yale theory made less progress, only in side points ...
1. the Michelino deck had 16 trumps, could be called somehow a Trionfi deck (though very different) and could be considered a forerunner of Cary-Yale, as it was produced by the same man and court. As the Michelino deck clearly had 16 special catds, why shouldn't it be plausible, that Cary-Yale had an orientation towards a 5x16-structure?
2. the Ingold deck, described 1432, had 8 trumps, one of the 8 figures a woman ... as it appears in chess.
3. The Imperatori cards in Ferrara 1423 had 8 trumps.
4. The Karnöffel game seemed to have a relative clear relation
5. The enthusiasm of Johannes of Rheinfelden clearly relates to the condition that Johannes sees parallels to the chess game.
... till the point, when it became clear, that the Charles VI, considered earlier to be generally from "Ferrara and from ca. 1470" possibly was "from Florence and earlier than 1470". This happened winter 2008/2009.
If it was earlier, then securely it should relate to the oldest decks and the probability was rather high, that it hadn't 22 special cards.
So it got a new focus, and then it was easy to recognize, that there were 16 special cards and the easiest solution for this was ... this was a complete trump set with one additional court card figure to give an orientation, how the small arcana might look like.
The "number 16" had with this 3 examples in the early Trionfi card world: Michelino deck, Cary-Yale and Michelino deck, somehow a true opponent to that what was known about the 4x14-theory: note from 1.1.1441 (14 figure), note from 1457 (70 cards) and the 70 cards from the Bembo cards itself ... both appearing in 3 versions, all "with some evidence" either appearing in real cards or as notes in documents.
Well, and it was assumed, that, if Cary-Yale was related to chess, then it should likely be possible to arrange the Charles VI trumps in a similar way.
Well ... it was possible.
Since then some further development took place, and already it's considered (and likely it will take place) to alter the major line of the Trionfi.com exploration: Instead of "5x14-theory" one should speak of "Chess Tarot".
Meanwhile the "5x14-theory" itself, somehow hampered by general scepticism about theories, which didn't appear in books, and generally missing interests in the English language world, had found some acceptance in Italy. "Among other things I believe in the validity of his 5x14 theory on the number of original Trionfi", Andrea Vitali noted, in Italian "Fra l'altro, ritengo valida la sua teoria del 5 X 14 riguardante il numero dei Trionfi in origine"
So things develop ...