Daughters of the Moon aka DOM-Hierarchy and the Five Suits

[FantasyWorld]

I want to thank WhiteRaven for taking the time to type so much from the book so we can understand what the creators believe and where they are coming from when they created this deck
I just do not have a problem with the deck being feminine although I'm sure that some of what they wrote in the book might bother me because of my Traditional belief system. I mentioned in another post that this might bother me if all decks were biased but they aren't so I enjoy the feminism of this deck.
I think it's great they rotate the woman in circle as Priestess as opposed to "just" a High Priestess to me more connected.

whiteraven:Hierarchy and the Five Suits

"Hierarchy thrives in an atomosphere of duality and opposition. If we are part of a cycle or circle, we are connected to each other, but if one of us is "higher" than the other, we are separated. In the light of this concept, we have renamed the High Priestess card "The Priestess", to reflect the concept that every womon who practices magic is a Priestess of one area or another. In the ritual circle the job of the Priestess can be rotated between qualified wimmin.

Covens are a bit like a Hierarchy though because the HP and HPS are "higher" in many ways although the priestessing can still be shared and rotated. I am actually a bit confused by all this relating to the deck since I am not Dianic and don't have to the book to read through. In our coven there actually is not an official HPS there is just a HP with several priestess's which is ok. I am in a grove (hive) of this coven so there is only 1 priestess (top cat) in the grove and we are all woman,not by choice but so far that's all we have so I am just not bothered by the feminism of this. It wasn't until I became a Traditional Witch that I realized the importance of Male energy. They (deck creators) either ignore this or don't care and/or just play off female energy. I do not pratice that way and that is my choice just as the way They practice is their choice. One thing I have realized on my path in being Wiccan is why we have many religions (IMHO) and that is:
1) All people DO NOT process info in the same way and therefore could NEVER be all 1 religion. People have to have choices(options) that fit their beliefs and that RESONATE with them.
2)Diversity!!!
3)All things happen for a reason!!!
4)One thing always leads to another.
This is a bit off topic now so I will leave it at that.
Blessed Be ALL
Alanna

 

[WhiteRaven]

I think that what you are objecting to is a deck that does not reflect Pagan Orthodoxy, a phrase that I hoped I would never have to say. Orthodoxy means that there is a set belief system that must be accepted or you are out of the club. For Dianics to say they are Pagan, and yet not accept the kind of dualism set up by a god/goddess theology is against that orthodoxy.

Yes, Wicca has their core beliefs. So do all the other religions. There is nothing wrong with this and zeroing in on "Pagan" is not quite fair. First off, Pagan is not a religion. It is a title that has many traditions that lie underneath that title including Goddess Worshippers. FantasyWorld and I are Wiccan. She is a Traditional Wiccan, I am an Eclectic Wiccan. However, we have the same core beliefs and this allows us to say that we are both Wiccan. One of those core beliefs IS the full acknowledgement of the male/female balance...and it's importance in recognizing this balance as part of life. This has nothing to do with my personal opinion on this deck. I am only saying that it lacks the balance and makes me, as an individual, uncomfortable with it in ways. I can relate to it more than another perhaps because of my choice of sexuality as such....and I never said that it isn't a good deck to look at female issues and a female spiritual growth of whatever that may mean to an individual person. What I am complaining about is the lack of balance...yes...also I can not see myself reading to a man with this deck....period...there is no question of me being hostile and not accepting this deck on the market. Everyone has the choice to believe in what they feel necessary within their said religious structure. I am Wiccan. God/Goddess concept. Balance.

I think you have to allow the deck room to breathe in its own world. If you don't agree with it philosophically, just say so. I personally feel that way about the Thoth, but I don't say it isn't a Tarot deck.

I have voiced what I'm not comfortable about within this deck and you are the one that seems offensive to my opinion and not open to what I or FantasyWorld or any other Wiccan holds within their beliefs. Each religion has their "core" beliefs. Balance is one of ours...a very important one for that matter. You have many denominations within the Christian network that have different ways of doing things...but you also see a "core" belief within that particular network....Same with Muslims...Same with Wiccans....There are many trads of Wicca that are around. But...Balance doesn't change...even for the author..she follows the Dianic Wicca path , thus you have "Pan" yet she left the option open for those that only worship the Goddess to remove 'Pan" if they wish...I just don't feel that "Pan" can pull all the weight to creat a balance.

Or is the politics of DOM, and the fact that it is Pagan, but outside the orthodoxy, that is so disturbing?

Again, for the sake of not having any misunderstandings...."Pagan" is NOT a religion. Wicca is one that falls under the title of Pagan path. Wicca requires one to believe in balance. The author, herself, is Wiccan. This is why Pan is in the deck...yet Dianic Wicca will recognize the balance that is the core of the Wicca belief system...they focus more on worshipping the Goddess...thus leaning more towards the feminine side as opposed to the more balanced Traditional Wiccans such as Gardinarian, Alexandrian, Eclectic...etc...

Pagan :
1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

Just trying to clarify a few things.

 

[Ace]

I find it interesting, and kind of weird, that so many women are having trouble with this deck. For me, it is definitely a Tarot. The fifth suit being Aether, is simply a way of acknowledging the fifth element and the terms Major and Minor Arcana are not so very old anyway.

Being able to see the archetypes as manifesting as female is an important step in reclaiming feminine power. That so many on this thread are resistant to that seems to me a real backlash to the important work done by women in the 60's, 70's, and 80's in this regard. The very fact that so many young women regard the word "feminist" as anti-male is frightening to me, when in fact, feminism was anti-patriarchal, that is, against male privilege, and a society based on values that were perceived and constructed as male.

It's interesting that at least one person says "she is not arguing for argument's sake" - maybe that is an unconscious recognition that on some level, she is arguing for exactly that reason. RedMaple

RedMaple: I am glad you are joining us.

I am not familiar with a lot of non-RWS decks. I said it wasn't a tarot decks since it takes such liberties with the structure: 3 courts, no emperor equivelent, etc. But I didn't realize the Handl and others do such things also.

I am actually a feminist: I chose career (in the very early 70's!) over looking to get married, a lifestyle choice that totally shocked my parents. I agree that feminism is NOT anti-men, just pro-women, which maybe why a women only deck may be a little abrasive for me. I have my own issues with men, and seeing these comments reminds me to examine my own views.

My biggest thing however, is NEVER say never. I will probably find as we work with it, that I won't use this deck for a guy, but I still insist: never is a big word, I simply prefer probably not. There is no one true way: even with this tarot deck!

Although I word it badly, I think we may agree more than we disagree, RedMaple and WhiteRaven. Forgive me my inarticulateness!

 

[WhiteRaven]

RedMaple and WhiteRaven. Forgive me my inarticulateness!

You are explaining yourself quite fine Ace. Do not think otherwise and if it is your personal opinion that you see this deck more of an Oracle than a Tarot, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that opinion. I only posted to tell you what I thought you may have overlooked in the book, that the author does see this as a Tarot deck and is marketed as such. You do not have to apologize for having your own, individual opinion on this deck nor is there any need for apology for what I believe is very clear statements as to how you feel.

 

[WhiteRaven]

One more thing that I would like to point out to you RedMaple. I don't know if you realize this or not but I am the one that started this study group and am typing almost the entire book in posts for others to learn and understand. Not only others, but myself as well. If I did not have the interest and had the so called "hostility" towards this deck as you seem to feel I do, then I wouldn't have bothered starting this group and the deck would have remained in it's box collecting dust on the shelf.
The whole point of this group is not to bash Ffiona Morgan and her concepts and changes within this particular Tarot deck. It's to try and learn, from the author's angle, the roots and true meanings that she wished for the women that bought this deck, to get.

 

[WhiteRaven]

The next thread is now posted...onward in our journey...The Dreamer...

 

[RedMaple]

White Raven,

If I have misinterpreted your attitude toward the DOM, I apologize. Your tone in some of your posts, however, seems quite angry. This may be simply the result of writing, where I can't see your face or hear your voice.

I understand the basis of Wicca, I was in a coven for five years, a coven that was not hierarchical, and where the role of HP was taken by different women for different ceremonies, based on our particular gifts and strengths. There is the Goddess, the God, and the reality beyond those, that cannot be spoken.

I think it is pretty open-minded of those who created DOM to include both Pan and an alternative -- it seems they understood that there were some women who could not see the Divine as male at that time.

Could Pan stand in for the Emperor card?

 

[RedMaple]

RedMaple: I am glad you are joining us.

I am not familiar with a lot of non-RWS decks. I said it wasn't a tarot decks since it takes such liberties with the structure: 3 courts, no emperor equivelent, etc. But I didn't realize the Handl and others do such things also.

There is no one true way: even with this tarot deck!

Although I word it badly, I think we may agree more than we disagree, RedMaple and WhiteRaven. Forgive me my inarticulateness!

I don't know of any other decks that have only 3 courts, but there are decks that include extra Majors - the Paranirvana card comes to mind in the Buddha deck, and I know there are others.

I don't think you are at all inarticulate. I am sorry if I gave that impression.

And I wholeheartedly agree that there is no one true way -- I think that was my whole point!

RedMaple

 

[WhiteRaven]

Pan

Just to jump a tad...but we will come back to this card as we go through the deck...

Quoted from the Daughters of the Moon Website
Section "Links"

http://home.pacific.net.au/~ffionam/
Link to "Daughters of the Moon Website"..

PAN

"In this card I am introducing a positive male image to the Tarot. He can be found in many ancient mythologies, characterized by his sensuousness, creativity and love for the Goddess. His names are many: Gwydion, Tammuz, Angus Og, Dion, The Green Man, and the Horned God. In my research I found that it was this carefree, poetic and sensual figure that was transformed by the patriarchal myth-makers into the Devil. Thus, contemporary men may have internalized repression and guilt towards these qualities in themselves, calling them "of the Devil". By the same token, a man reclaiming the image of Pan is in the process of self-liberation.
In a reading this card shows the presence of a good-hearted man; gentle, sensitive, loving and caring, perhaps active in positive parenting. He shows concern for children and is willing to care for them. This man is working to overcome the patriarchy, someone who is supportive of womyn's liberation and human rights. Men need to know they have the power to change. Can he still cry? To what extent have his feelings been cut off? He strives to overcome his conditioning which goes deep, and is reinforced by a phallocentric society.Can he still laugh? Or is the child part of his ego smothered with male rationale and logic? Pan strives to let his inner child out as he plays with the young ones.
This is a political man, gay or straight, who is trying to change his actions in positive ways by developing gentleness and self-love. This includes giving up his macho-power over womyn and children, discovering the natural beauty of the planet, recognizing magic, lunar consciousness and finding The Goddess.
To interpret this card, look for a Pan-type man in your life. He could be a son, a friend, or a lover, who is struggling with new behaviors. If this card comes tilted or reversed you may be in some kind of relationship with a man who won't give up his power, and needs confronting on some of the issues mentioned above. In many male hero myths, the central figure appears as a trickster god, one who plays pranks and perpetuates deception. The clever male ego can be capable of this. If this card is tilted at a zany angle, beware, he could be using womyn's liberation ideas for personal gain or power. The feminist principle may still be active in him but he may be "selling out" or perhaps he means well and needs some consciousness-raising from his brothers. If this is the case we suggest you stop being ripped off, or take space away from him to get your bearings."




He represents all the male influences within a regular Tarot deck.
The Emperor has lost his authority and the Empress now carries it.
The Heirophant to the Priestess (High Priestess)

I'm not sure what he replaces...I think it's just a general replacement...filling the lack of male influence within the deck.


Edited to say: "duh...Ms Morgan states above that it replaces the Devil...I have brain overload going on here. Too many religious debates in one week..brain cells are burnt out....sigh"

and skip that too...I'm going to bed!!