Dianism

[Kiama]

After buying, and getting confused over, the Daughters of The Moon Tarot deck, I realised I know hardly anything about Dianism. For instance, how do Dianists justify the total putting down of men? Does it not take a penis aswell as a vagina to make a baby? (Sorry about the example, but it's the only thing I could come up with!) Who was a major influence on Dianism, and what do Dianists believe? How do they celebrate? Do they marry men, have babies, etc? I'm very confused about all this, and would be exceedingly grateful to anyone who can answer these questions! (I have no money to buy more books, so buying books on the subject is out of the question, and my local library is rubbish when it comes to these topics!)

Kiama

 

[slinky_jo]

Kiama - I don't know that much on the topic either, but I don't think that Dianists HATE men! I think they are trying to equal out all the centuries of patriarchal religion and the persecution of women and all thing "non male" (animals, nature, etc), with a feminine force/voice. I think there may also be different groups of Dianists - some have only a Goddess at their deity, some have many, somehave a Goddess who presides over the God. I know that they appreciate the concepts of menstruation, pregnancy, birth, menopause (things truely and wholey feminine).

I hope this helps you, even though I am NO expert! lol! Maybe someone else here can help you out better!

 

[Greenman]

it has been said that the pendulum must swing to it's opposite extreme before it finds the center. but both extremes are just as out of balance in my opinion.
and while i would never dis anyone else's path, the term 'Dianic Wicca' is an oxymoron, imo. i came to Wicca to find balance, so this doesn't seem like Wicca to me at all. perhaps Dianic Paganism would be a better term, if a lable is neccessary.

 

[Kiama]

Greenman: Not to be picky, but why not just call it Dianism? I came to Paganism to find balance, so I think it is just as oxymoronic as Dianic Wicca! Agh, labels!

Anyway, I'm still confused as to how Dianics actually justify the exclusion of men. Why are men seen as inferior? Surely doing this to make up for all the patriarchy previously is attempting to have to wrongs making a right?

Oh, I'm confused....

Kiama

 

[divinerguy]

I visited a Dianic Wicca website. On the FAQ, it tried to justify the "no men allowed" policy of Dianic worship.

I'm offended by the fact that an entire class of persons would be completely rejected without consideration of individual character.

That's not paganistic and its not Wiccan - its bigotry. I could buy their argument, but they completely try to extinguish masculinity in all forms.

Dianic Wiccan websites don't have a history, they have a herstory. They don't have women, they have wimmin.

Dianic Wiccans try to put a happy face on their exclusionism by asserting that they are egalitarian.

The uphill battle faced by Dianic Wicca is the sexual orientation of its membership.
As Dianic Wiccan covens have a high population of lesbians, it is perceived by many as a Lesbians Only Club. Dianics have moderated their position men by allowing heterosexual females into the fold.

Until men are allowed into Dianic Covens, they'll never shed their tarnished image. I have no objection to High Preistesses who are female only, as I believe there's a historical basis for this. However, Diana was historically worshipped by men and women.

Bottom line - spirituality is about what's in your heart, not who's sitting next to you.

For more information on Dianic Wicca, try this link: http://wicca.drak.net/dreamweaver/herstory.html).

Gary

 

[Kiama]

Thanks for the link, Divinerguy.

Well, the writer's spelling leaves alot to be desired.

WOMBYNZ???!!!! This sounds like Wombles to me! (Do you guys get this programme in anywhere outside Britain? If not, just think furry creatures that look like a cross between albino rats and giant teddy bears.)

I also see a huge hole in this Dianism stuff (No offense meant) Men are scientifically half female anyway! Women have XX chromosomes, men have XY. They have half female chromosomes in there. It has also been proven that before we start properly developing in the womb, every baby has female gentalia which either stays that way, or grows into male genatalia. So if men are essentially female anyway, why exclude them? (This is in no way meant to degrade men. Personally,I think men are just as important as women. I'm just stating fact)

I also had to disagree with the writer's claim that women aren't finding their true potential or power because they are held back in a patriarchal society. I am 17, and have realised nearly all my dreams, and am fast making and realising new ones. I am published many times over, am very successful, getting good grades, making a future for myself, and what's more, I'm HAPPY! I know how much potential I have, and where my talents and power lies. Yet men are just as much part of my life and happiness and self-realisation as women are! If women can't find who they really are, they shouldn't be blaming patriarchy for that.

Anyway, I learned alot from that webpage (Despite my disagrement with some of the writer's viewpoints.) It turns out that Dianics don't hate men, and they do believe in the God aspect aswell as the Goddess, its just that when in women (Wombynz :-D ) only circles, they only invoke the Goddess side. They are happy to invoke the God aspect in other circles of mixed gender...

Kiama

 

[fairyhedgehog]

Maybe it's a "you had to be there" kind of thing.

I was born in 1954 and the society and culture I grew up in was intensely patriarchal. Girls stayed at home and made tea, boys went off and /did/ things. I was good at French at school (a B at A level, with an A for the oral) so what did they suggest for a career for me? Air hostess. Or maybe secretary.

I was /not/ going to type someone else's letters for them. (And I didn't )

Anyway, I felt very angry at men in general and I can understand women who are still hurt (maybe damaged even) and find it hard to accept men for who they are.

I've been lucky. I have a good husband and two wonderful sons who react very quickly to any hint of sexism towards men. So I think I am able to take a more balanced view now.

It is easy to react very strongly when you are hurt, though.

All the best,

FH

 

[Pollux]

Kiama: I'll tell you something shocking.
Not only there is a half of woman in every man - what you justify with the XX/XY chromosomes and the development of antigen Y for "man-to-bes" - but sometimes, it even works the other way around.
And I have direct experience and know some "victim" of this...

In certain cases, for reasons undetected at most, the antigen Y that makes a "man" fails to work. Thus, according to your genetic sex, you ARE a man - all of your cells have the trademark of the antigen Y - but, biologically and mostly anatomically, you ARE a Woman, because the antigen didn't work, and you did't develop "masculine" genitalia, keeping the "intenal" feminine form.
People with this problem (woman, of course) can't bear children, for genetics reasons - I don't remember them clearly, don't ask me to go look them up! However it's probably the fact that they're going to unite with a man, and have two XY cromos... or rather that their "egg-cells" don't work properly, having the antigen...

I wonder if some Dianist knew she's no woman at all - genetically, of course!

P.S. Now I see I didn't add much to the post!

 

[Red Emma]

Gary, I can feel your anger at men's exclusion from a whole spiritual group, Dianism, but consider FH's reply. Not just intellectually, but take your anger, pretend that you're a woman, and desperately want to be an engineer, or a reporter, or a business executive. Then you apply for such a position. This is assuming that you were able to get into an appropriate college program, which women were NOT. Anyhow, you apply for the job, and the personnel people are only interested in one thing: can you type. If so, they'll do you a HUMONGOUS favor and let you be a secretary to an engineer, and tell you to be appropriately grateful. You take the job, and guess what? When it's discovered that you're a genius at engineering, they'll let you do some of the scut work. But they'll still call you a secretary, and pay you as a secretary. And besides, you'll have to work during your lunch and after hours to keep the secretarial work done. But hey! Don't take it personally. It's just business.

Beyond that, in any co-ed club you (as a woman) belong to, men will assume they're in control. And take control. The women, they believe, are there to do the busy work -- take minutes and type them up as a rule.

I won't even mention the men in any setting -- work or social -- who are majorly intimidated by women having any voice in affairs, and go out of their way to put you down. Keep you from getting any ideas above your station. Some do it with humor. But most of these guys are cruel and vindictive.

I can easily see why women become Dianics. It's such a relief to be in an organization where you don't always have to be on your guard to protect yourself from the Soul Thieves. To just let down your hair, relax and be yourself.

Best wishes and Goddess Bless,

Red Emma

 

[purplelady]

Kiama, do consider FH's and Red Emma's response. And your original question and puzzlement. It isn't even Just that a woman wasn't able to get the job a man could, it is/was a whole system of patriarchal society and thought............I don't think I can really explain it here. But I think if a woman has lived through some of these things, or feels put down by it , then Dianic Wicca or whatever can seem very attractive, healing , and powerful. Patriarchy IS an attitude and outlook and hierarchy that our society is run by , whether you see it or not. There are some attitudes that change in extreme feminism , or whatever you want to call it.
For instance (And maybe this is terrible example so please don't shoot me!!)20, 25 years ago (Maybe even now!) if a woman , married with kids, is terribly unhappy, common advice would be to go to a psychiatrist. Now , things probubly are a little different today , but back when Freud was in (!) it was assumed something was always wrong with the woman, Why wasn't she happy? Why was she about to have a nervous breakdown , ..................but it was almost always her fault. There wasn't really an understanding to help her figure it out. If you Read the daughter's of the moon book , or the motherpeace book , I think some of the problums women face and have faced are dealt with differently , with more compassion and understanding from a women's point of view. That maybe the woman was totally "right" to feel awful and violated , and unhappy , or abused , or without opportunity or whatever it was (burnt out maybe ?!) totally sane to feel that way, and the feminism , Dianic Wicca or whatever says yes , she is totally sane to feel that way , it's society! It's patriarchy that is "wrong"! That can feel pretty empowering to a woman who's whole family , even friends and parents side with the "she's crazy" or she's wrong , or "we don't understand what her problum is" side.

Pollux, I think your example is halarious!