Disappointed by the Jodorowsky-Camoin TdM

coredil

Le Marseillais said:
Hello all,
... I was one of this spoon feeded people and paid about 400 bucks for 4 days of courses with Philippe Tourrasse alias Camoin. And 2 times... I have no regrets coz it was part of my path to take a walk on the wild side of La Force... Ha Ha !
I have to confess also that I still like his deck even if now I know how wrong it is.
Bonjour Le Marseillais,

as Helvetica mentioned, Jodorowsky, in his book La voie du Tarot explains more about his work with Camoin.
Among several things he talks about the discovery of an old and complete french deck in Mexico at Raoul Kampfer Antik shop. He also says this deck has been essential for their reconstruction.
Did ever Camoin said something in his courses about this deck? Or did he even show this deck?

Best regards
 

Fulgour

amadores todo (loving everything)

Le Marseillais said:
Thanks to our real good amatores that are present
in this Forum... Yves Le Marseillais [yes: you too!]
Thanks :) Yves! How I would love to be able to attend
such a seminar... even if I couldn't understand a word!

Best Wishes & Happy New Year!
~Fulgour THE Scorpio ;)
 

Le Marseillais

let's draw back the curtain one minute

In my opinion, Philippe Tourrasse (Camoin) has built an enticing story around his deck by putting details that are not on any other old decks (except door in Tower and other items well listed by Jean Michel David), in order to produce his own story for his show. Marie Madeleine Legend is a cornerstone of this show(like Rhodes/Sanchez that added Cathars Legends to their own). A little detail to show you how it works in Philippe's courses : in La Lune XVIII, you can see (on his deck only as everybody can check), a small fish designed with waves made by water on the lower right side. A shaped fish like we all made when we were young. Philippe questioned by myself on this specific point answered that it was the Christian symbol of fish meaning... Jesus moving from right to left in direction of... Marie Madeleine symbolised on L'ETOILE XVII by the woman. And we all know/see that the woman is pregnant. Take it or leave it but he said that. All details added by him are explained like this. His system is built like this. But it has nothing to do with the real Tarot System which is a complex system where all details counts, but certainly not "added/restored/re-instored" details. To reply now to Coredil about an old and full deck bought in Mexico by the couple Jodo/Camoin-Tourrasse, I learnt by a friend that used to be close to the Tourrasse "Camoin" family, and who saw it, that it is the François Tourcaty deck. Camoin pretends that it predates Conver, but nothing can be certain. My friend who saw the deck told me it was not a lot richer in details than Conver, except for colours, that camoin did not match! No Holy Grail here… Sorry to break a dream. The worst is that this deck is kept in a safe, and never showed to anybody, even when Marseilles exposed ancient Tarots in 2004, and that Camoin was presented as the heir of this tradition. Philippe took the praise, but did not show his treasures. Yet, someone who managed the expositions at this time, critisized severly the Camoin Tarot, which she said to a limited comitee, was out of tradition with the light green and orange colours added. She said categoricaly that theses colours have never been used in ancient Tarots! Indeed, the Tarot use a very precise colour palette, as one can see on older decks. One thing has to be cleared about Philippe "Camoin". He's not bloodlined for certain with Conver, which anyway certainly did not engrave this deck, but owned the factory. Conver House became Levenq-Conver, then Camoin. From there, a Camoin women married a Tourrassse man, which gave birth to Philippe Tourrasse's father or grandfather (Camoin is a pseudo, and he nearly get sued for that).
We only can says that Camoin is a Trade Mark or an Artist name or both depending the way we judge or estimate Philippe.
Truth is sometimes terrible isn't it ?
Yves Le Marseillais
 

Fulgour

The More - The Merrier

Thanks :) Yves! You know what I wish would happen?
I wish 10 (or even 20) other people or groups together
would publish Tarots with the same energy, and skill...

Beautifully made, pleasing to the eye and the intellect
and 'out there' in the real world like Tarot should be! ;)
 

coredil

Le Marseillais said:
To reply now to Coredil about an old and full deck bought in Mexico by the couple Jodo/Camoin-Tourrasse, I learnt by a friend that used to be close to the Tourrasse "Camoin" family, and who saw it, that it is the François Tourcaty deck. Camoin pretends that it predates Conver, but nothing can be certain. My friend who saw the deck told me it was not a lot richer in details than Conver, except for colours, that camoin did not match! No Holy Grail here… Sorry to break a dream. The worst is that this deck is kept in a safe, and never showed to anybody, even when Marseilles exposed ancient Tarots in 2004, and that Camoin was presented as the heir of this tradition. Philippe took the praise, but did not show his treasures. Yet, someone who managed the expositions at this time, critisized severly the Camoin Tarot, which she said to a limited comitee, was out of tradition with the light green and orange colours added. She said categoricaly that theses colours have never been used in ancient Tarots! Indeed, the Tarot use a very precise colour palette, as one can see on older decks. One thing has to be cleared about Philippe "Camoin". He's not bloodlined for certain with Conver, which anyway certainly did not engrave this deck, but owned the factory. Conver House became Levenq-Conver, then Camoin. From there, a Camoin women married a Tourrassse man, which gave birth to Philippe Tourrasse's father or grandfather (Camoin is a pseudo, and he nearly get sued for that).
We only can says that Camoin is a Trade Mark or an Artist name or both depending the way we judge or estimate Philippe.
Truth is sometimes terrible isn't it ?
Yves Le Marseillais
Much much thanks for these very interesting informations :)

For anyone who is interested one can find 9 scans of a Francois Tourcaty deck on Camoin site:
http://www.philippe-camoin.com/en/ancient/tourcaty/tourcaty.asp

Just wondering if these scans are from the deck found in Mexico?
 

Fulgour

prudence said:
~to my untrained eye, those scans look just like my Besancon deck. :confused:
Le Besançon style is more in the mode of my...
 

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Le Marseillais

collective work for publishing Tarots

Fulgour said:
Thanks :) Yves! You know what I wish would happen?
I wish 10 (or even 20) other people or groups together
would publish Tarots with the same energy, and skill...

Beautifully made, pleasing to the eye and the intellect
and 'out there' in the real world like Tarot should be! ;)

Hi Fulgour,
I have ambition to works in this way. You could play your role inside this collective workinging group, like some others. Even if it is hard to balance egos, no doubts.

Yves Le Marseillais
 

Freddie

I utilize the Camoin reading method, but I have augmented it to my own liking. I don't think he would like my Fournier candy coloured Victorian styled Marseille or my refusal to use reversed cartes ( the deck is negative enough upright lol...). I just use a solution card for the negative cards drawn. I like my Marseille tarot to be 6cm x 11cm and not any bigger, so that rules out most the restored Marseille decks anyway (well I do cheat here and there with a Conver reprint Jane Lyle deck...too awesome not to...).

When I attend guitar workshops it is not expected of me to play the same model of guitar as the teacher, so why tarot??????????????? This is the mistake they are making. The fact that this deck is avaliable to the person using / learning this method should be the icing on the cake, not being someone cannot divine the tarot without it.




freddie
 

Rafaël

dig 4 facts

Mmm, though topic... One has to find the right balance between ones own esthetic taste and the general historic truth. One has to choose between a system that "works" and the relieability of the teacher...

I've read a lot of books and theories. And a lot are just rabbish, not making any sense. What I learned from Philippe's courses and Jodo's book still makes very much sense compared to the tons of books that end up in second hands bookshops. And from an esthetic point of view I still like the Jodo-Camoin TdM a lot. But I've started to compare decks and realize that it might indeed not be as authentic as it claims. Its a very weak spot in the Jodorowsky's and Camoin-Tourrasses' claim that they don't give any info on the reconstruction/restauration they performed. It's a mystery to me why they don't reveal the way they worked, unless their arguments suck...

What can we do about it (except wait for thé book to be edited?): dig, brothers and sisters, dig for facts as good archeologists and historians do!

A few weeks ago I fell upon a small book I didn't even know it existed. Of course I immediatly bought it when I saw the title "Donation Camoin & Cie" (from 1974-75) hoping it would give me some clue (even a tiny one). For those who doubt about it: this small book is not the catalogue of the exhibition of 2004!.

Well, here are some pages that could interest the people who followed this thread:
It's the catalogue of the exhibition "Donation Camoin et Cie" at the Musée du Vieux-Marseille from october 1974 til March 1975.

DonationCamoin.jpg


Here's the first evidence I ever saw of the link between the family names of Camoin and Tourrasse:

CamoinTourrasse.jpg


It appears the Camoin factory also had moulds for a Tourcaty deck (à enseignes espagnole):

TourcatyText.jpg


TourcatyMoule.jpg


R.