Does conjunction cast aspects' nets wider?

Minderwiz

Wow, interesting. Minderwiz, I think when you say that this is getting more advanced, I can see how that must be true! I'm just now finally starting to get my head around planets/signs/houses and how, say, Mars and Aries and the First House aren't exactly "more or less the same thing as each other" (although various resources seem to like offering that up as an easy shorthand for beginners, which I now think has possibly caused me more harm than good...). But I think that trying to consider additional, different House systems at the moment would shoot gaping holes in my progress! The 5 Degree Rule is interesting, though, and I need to ponder these kinds of situations. As I mentioned, I have one such example in my chart, and another from someone close to me does, too, so I do have a couple of real life examples to study.

It's progress indeed when you realise that the "Mars=Aries=First house" approach is actually stunting your astrological development. I fully agree with your sentiments. To me it doesn't work on any level (but one that I'll mention later in this post). Planets, Signs and Houses are all different entities and to conflate them is grossly misleading and actually confuses students in their later development. The linkage seems to stem from Medieval Medical Astrology, where both Signs and Houses were used as indicators of body parts, so, for example Aries and the First House were both taken as significators of the head and Pisces and the Twelfth House were both taken as significators of the Feet but that is the only linkage I've come across in the history of Astrology till the present day.

It's important that you recognise the difference between 'significator', 'analogy' and 'equivalence' - for example, I might say that my car might 'go like the wind' but it obviously is not the wind and you wouldn't really believe that is what I meant. Or I might do a Horary reading in which Mars is the significator of a lost book but clearly Mars is not the same thing as the lost book. The First House and Aries both share the property of coming first in order but that doesn't mean that they are equivalent.

For future reference, there's some interesting work being done by Chris Brennan, who is researching into Hellenistic Astrology. He's developing a very convincing theory that House meanings originate (at least in a large part) from the concept of the planetary Joys, which actually associates Mercury with the First House (The Moon with the third, Venus with the fifth, Mars with the sixth, the Sun with the ninth, Jupiter with the eleventh and Saturn with the twelfth). There's also early Hellenistic Texts which give the natal chart for the world as having Cancer rising (not Aries) and from which the planetary sign rulerships are derived. Don't chase those up now, I simply mention them to help make the point that many of the attempts to simplify Astrology or 'rationalise' it can actually damage its practise.

House systems are best left for a little while till you get into being able to read a chart with at least an established approach (even if you are still consulting your guidelines all the time). You will find that usually a change of house system will alter the nuances, or perhaps give different nuances, but essentially leave the reading the same. So wait till you are ready to add nuances, or till house systems begin to be something you're interested in.

By now you should realise that there are different approaches to Astrology, both in terms of what I might call 'schools of Astrology' and also at a personal level. Many books and websites are based on the Psychological approach and make use of Jungian ideas. That approach has dominated Astrology since the mid 1950s and most practising Astrologers grew up in it. If you are interested in the psychological side of Astrology it can be very useful but it is not the only approach, either in the twentieth century or in the history of Astrology.

Knowing what you base your Astrology on and why, like ravenest does, will come in time and indeed may shift over time as your interests diversify - until then, don't take anything as being the 'definitive way' and, as you are doing, keep asking 'why!'
 

frac_ture

It's progress indeed when you realise that the "Mars=Aries=First house" approach is actually stunting your astrological development. I fully agree with your sentiments. To me it doesn't work on any level (but one that I'll mention later in this post). Planets, Signs and Houses are all different entities and to conflate them is grossly misleading and actually confuses students in their later development. The linkage seems to stem from Medieval Medical Astrology, where both Signs and Houses were used as indicators of body parts, so, for example Aries and the First House were both taken as significators of the head and Pisces and the Twelfth House were both taken as significators of the Feet but that is the only linkage I've come across in the history of Astrology till the present day.

It's important that you recognise the difference between 'significator', 'analogy' and 'equivalence' - for example, I might say that my car might 'go like the wind' but it obviously is not the wind and you wouldn't really believe that is what I meant. Or I might do a Horary reading in which Mars is the significator of a lost book but clearly Mars is not the same thing as the lost book. The First House and Aries both share the property of coming first in order but that doesn't mean that they are equivalent.

For future reference, there's some interesting work being done by Chris Brennan, who is researching into Hellenistic Astrology. He's developing a very convincing theory that House meanings originate (at least in a large part) from the concept of the planetary Joys, which actually associates Mercury with the First House (The Moon with the third, Venus with the fifth, Mars with the sixth, the Sun with the ninth, Jupiter with the eleventh and Saturn with the twelfth). There's also early Hellenistic Texts which give the natal chart for the world as having Cancer rising (not Aries) and from which the planetary sign rulerships are derived. Don't chase those up now, I simply mention them to help make the point that many of the attempts to simplify Astrology or 'rationalise' it can actually damage its practise.

House systems are best left for a little while till you get into being able to read a chart with at least an established approach (even if you are still consulting your guidelines all the time). You will find that usually a change of house system will alter the nuances, or perhaps give different nuances, but essentially leave the reading the same. So wait till you are ready to add nuances, or till house systems begin to be something you're interested in.

By now you should realise that there are different approaches to Astrology, both in terms of what I might call 'schools of Astrology' and also at a personal level. Many books and websites are based on the Psychological approach and make use of Jungian ideas. That approach has dominated Astrology since the mid 1950s and most practising Astrologers grew up in it. If you are interested in the psychological side of Astrology it can be very useful but it is not the only approach, either in the twentieth century or in the history of Astrology.

Knowing what you base your Astrology on and why, like ravenest does, will come in time and indeed may shift over time as your interests diversify - until then, don't take anything as being the 'definitive way' and, as you are doing, keep asking 'why!'

Thank you for validating my unease and dissatisfaction with the whole "This planet equals this sign equals this house" approach. I understand how things like quick keywords can be really helpful in the early stages of learning the symbols of complex systems, and I do tend to find them useful myself, but I quickly realized that if I try to use, say, "communication" as a keyword for each of Mercury, Gemini, and the Third House, I'll continue to confuse not just those three particular symbols (which should be distinct from each other even if they have some similarities), but the greater functions of the planets, signs, and houses in general, as well. I'm still working on building up a small library of accurate keywords, but I'm now going out of my way to never use the same one for more than one symbol (which may be going too far in the opposite direction, but I think that's the safer and more constructive way for me to err at this stage of the game...).

The Chris Brennan thing sounds interesting, although as you said, I'll most likely hold off on looking at it for now! I have enough to grapple with at the moment...;) He must be well-regarded, though: last year I went to a seminar during my first burst of true study of astrology, and while the subject matter was largely way over my head at the time (it was about hermetic lots, I believe was the phrase that was used -- it dealt with things like the Part of Fortune, Part of Spirit, Part of Eros...), the presenter did mention Chris Brennan as someone deserving of high marks in the field. I went home and bookmarked his site, and still have it bookmarked, although it hasn't been one of the ones I've been leaning on heavily yet.

I do see appeal in working with astrology and psychology together (actually, I see the same in Tarot and psychology), although I can't say I've actually studied Jung directly. I do kind of sense that it's also looming in my future, though... But I do see a huge amount of value in mapping a birthchart against the personality of the person it represents. That's a big part of the fascination I'm finding in analyzing my own, and the intrigue of working out the charts of a few people close to me.
 

Minderwiz

The Chris Brennan thing sounds interesting, although as you said, I'll most likely hold off on looking at it for now! I have enough to grapple with at the moment...;) He must be well-regarded, though: last year I went to a seminar during my first burst of true study of astrology, and while the subject matter was largely way over my head at the time (it was about hermetic lots, I believe was the phrase that was used -- it dealt with things like the Part of Fortune, Part of Spirit, Part of Eros...), the presenter did mention Chris Brennan as someone deserving of high marks in the field. I went home and bookmarked his site, and still have it bookmarked, although it hasn't been one of the ones I've been leaning on heavily yet.

Yes Hermetic Lots is the correct term. They come from one of the very first Horoscopic texts, the author writing under the pseudonym of Hermes Trismegistus. It's one of the foundation stones of Horoscopic Astrology. Nothing survives of it, except mentions in later texts but clearly an actual text did exist. I've actually signed up for Chris' Hellenistic Astrology Course, though at the moment it's more an access to a wealth of material. Chris started out using the standard psychological approach but says that Kepler College 'forced' him to look at the Hellenisitic origins and he got hooked.

frac_ture said:
I do see appeal in working with astrology and psychology together (actually, I see the same in Tarot and psychology), although I can't say I've actually studied Jung directly. I do kind of sense that it's also looming in my future, though... But I do see a huge amount of value in mapping a birthchart against the personality of the person it represents. That's a big part of the fascination I'm finding in analyzing my own, and the intrigue of working out the charts of a few people close to me.

I can well understand that but as you progress you'll begin to look at the predictive dimension to Astrology (historically it's main dimension) and then a new world opens up. :)
 

frac_ture

I can well understand that but as you progress you'll begin to look at the predictive dimension to Astrology (historically it's main dimension) and then a new world opens up. :)

I'm positive that you're right about this. I have a lot of study and practice ahead of me before I'll be ready for that whole undertaking, but I feel like I will get there. As I mentioned, I've been using Steven Forrest's The Inner Sky as a fairly primary study aid so far, and while I do feel like I now want to find a different book to help me advance in terms of just interpreting birthcharts, I also have Forrest's The Changing Sky sitting in my little occult library, waiting for me to gear up for the predictive stuff... Looking forward to it!

Good luck with that course you mentioned, too, by the way!
 

Minderwiz

I'm positive that you're right about this. I have a lot of study and practice ahead of me before I'll be ready for that whole undertaking, but I feel like I will get there. As I mentioned, I've been using Steven Forrest's The Inner Sky as a fairly primary study aid so far, and while I do feel like I now want to find a different book to help me advance in terms of just interpreting birthcharts, I also have Forrest's The Changing Sky sitting in my little occult library, waiting for me to gear up for the predictive stuff... Looking forward to it!

There are a whole load of alternative books you might care to look at. When I was at your stage I read Stephen Arroyo's 'Chart Interpretation Handbook' and Tracey Marks 'Art of Chart Interpretation' both of which are in the psychological scheme of things and so shouldn't introduce any major confusion assoicated with a change in author.

For a slightly different take there's Kevin Burk's Astrology: Understanding the Birth Chart', which draws on traditional as well as modern sources

There are also masses more, some of which you'll find in the resources thread.

I'd suggest that at some point you read something on the history of Astrology, to give yourself some context in terms of ideas and schools. There's two outstanding texts, James Herschel Holden's 'A History of Horoscopic Astrology' and Nick Campion's two volumes on the History of Western Astrology. Both come right up to modern ideas and practices, as well as looking at perennial questions such as Fate versus Free Will.

You don't need the latter books for chart interpretation but they will help you get a good overview and make you think about what the purpose and practice of Astrology has been, is and even should be. :)

frac_ture said:
Good luck with that course you mentioned, too, by the way!

Thanks - I'm using the Hellenistic Astrology thread to try out some of the ideas. At the moment I'm taking a break whilst I finish putting Vettius Valen's Anthology into an easily readable format instead of the micro print of the version I downloaded from the web. But I will resurrect it in the not to distant future.
 

frac_ture

Thanks for the great recommendations on books. I've seen Arroyo's name mentioned probably the most, but I've heard of the other two as well. I've been meaning to check them out in person the next time I got to one of the metaphysical shops here in LA that has a decent selection of books. Unfortunately, the two shops I'm thinking of are the two farthest from where I live (one to the east, and one to the west...), so I haven't managed a trek out to either in a while. After reading your post, I went to Amazon, and I got to sample some of each of them with that browse feature they offer on certain books. They all looked really interesting, and all were priced really well, so I just fired up and ordered them (Arroyo, Marks, and Burk). I'll keep pressing on with the Forrest book and my bookmarked websites until they arrive, but I'm all eager now -- thanks again!

I took down the names of the more historical books you listed, too, and will keep them in mind for when I need to take a breather from chart analysis. I do agree that getting some historical context can help with the study of any field. I seem to generally have a pattern of digging first into more hands-on, practical work with things, and later scoping out the historical background (that's how I've been operating with both Tarot and Runes, although just organically, not as if I made a calculated decision to do it that way, and I'm sure I'll find myself using the same approach with astrology).

I also found a couple of your other threads, and will likely begin digging into those, too. I anticipate a lot of it being beyond me for now, but it might do me some good to start to look at the road up ahead...;)