Heirophant and organized crime?

[MasterJm]

I don't take some readers here seriously and i think they are evil. I am a t -reader too but i am not professional and i follow Aleister Crowleys advice don't reading Tarot for money. But when i read a advise "hang up the phone when he will call you" or another lady to insult me, i can't take that kind of people seriously. They are fanatical and fatalistic. Some people here must prove me that they can predict. I hope that the forum is enough democratic to leave my posts here without to delete or modify them again. I need proofs for everything. I was not so experenced reader when a few months ago i predicted that my partner would return to my life, a "great tarot reader" here insulted and mocked me here though. And he failed to predict. And...i RESPECT the tarot cards. Deep respect. But i don't respect some readers.

 

[gregory]

I don't think anyone here is an EVIL reader. Nor would I ever say anyone here has insulted or mocked you (I just looked back through a lot of your threads.)

But I don't think your experiences with readings here is strictly relevant in this thread. On "off-topic" grounds your post may therefore be deleted.

But kwaw (I imagine) was serious about the Hierophant possibly representing the Godfather from the Mafia - and I agree with him, and I am serious in saying so, even if he wasn't.

 

[kwaw]

I was serious - the title of the thread re; hierophant & organised crime, that was just the most 'literal' connection in context (organised crime) - and I am a great fan of literal, punning and word play connections - in a reading context I have found they are generally more spot on than more esoteric, occult type correspondences...

Not sure who or what the 'evil' readers is in connection with or what relevance it has to this thread, so... no comment on that.

 

[rwcarter]

Moderator Note

As a reminder, there is a Respect Our Members (click) rule at Aeclectic. Folks are encouraged to read it because further attacks on the Aeclectic membership will be dealt with appropriately.

 

[danieljuk]

The Mafia Boss Paul Castellano even had the nickname "The Pope" (the name for 'The Hierophant' in some tarot decks).

I think for me the Hierophant can be any form of group identifying and tradition. The thing that I struggle with is that it's a character with compassion and understanding but also conforming with society. I guess though in crime gangs you conform to the gang and it's rules and the head boss has that counselling type role with new recruits and young people. People join criminal gangs for safety and for people with something in common, they have a place where they fit in and some type of belonging, acceptance and respect. I do see this card as that (and didn't think of that before )

 

[Zephyros]

I know the heirophant can stand for religion, tradition etc. Structures in which in can be hard to implement change. I was wondering if it could be drawn if someone was involved in organized crimes? I'm doing a reading about a case well my reading is geared towards insight on the victim life. Is there a spread to find out if someone is dead? I know this is a bit morbid.

I think this shows only one side of him. The Hierophant's role in day to day life could be a pope or other form of clergy, but if that were the case he would still be called "pope," but he isn't. The role of the Hierophant is one of initiator to the mysteries, sort of the authority and wisdom that comes with experience. If I were to translate directly to modern term, I would say that more than anything the Hierophant represents the super-ego, the mindfulness that comes with interaction with others; social, moral and ethical rules. What those rules are (and consequently what the Hierophant initiates into) depends on the person. There are some thing that seem to feel innately wrong, and the Hierophant is the one who would tell us. More than dogma and authority, the Hierophant tells us our own rules on how to create our specific universe, and those rules come from the pure ideas only dreamt of in the Fool.

In mundane terms, a Hierophant is a teacher not necessarily for the power and authority, but rather a wise figure you could learn a lot from. Far from being disconnected from feeling and intuition, he is actually the one that tells you how to reveal the "hidden wisdom" of the Priestess. This process takes work, often difficult and backbreaking. The Hierophant is attributed to Taurus, which shows his dogged perseverance and stubbornness to get the job done. He is present when reading Tarot, for example: anyone can do it, but those that really shine are those that have put in time to build a relationship with themselves through the images.

The flip side really is the dogmatic, authoritarian authority figure, as you said. As for a crime boss, I suppose I could see that, at least the romanticized, Sopranos-style patriarch of the crime family. It could also come from a wish to change things for the better and becoming a criminal tyrant. Still, it isn't the first card that comes to mind, though.

 

[Thirteen]

I was wondering if it could be drawn if someone was involved in organized crimes?

Yes.

I think for me the Hierophant can be any form of group identifying and tradition.

This.

The Hierophant is a leader who is all about tradition. The reason why he's usually a spiritual leader is because religion is where traditions are kept safe and maintained, unchanged for thousands of years—and the leader of a religion is usually the one who acts as caretaker of such traditions. Not just maintaining them, but teaching them. His view is that the spiritual is transmitted to the earthly by way of these traditions. Change the tradition, and you cut people off from the spirit.

There is nothing to say that the religion, traditions, or hierophant must be "good" or kind or nice, etc. Just learned, a leader, and of the view that traditions should be maintained and passed on generation to generation.

There are some very strong traditions in organized crime, and a leader of such would certainly be for maintaining them. Just watch "Goodfellas" sometime to see how very traditional such organizations were. Tribute had to be paid to the boss, "made men" couldn't be killed without negotiation, and who got to be "made" was a very small club...etc. These traditions all came from the "old country" and had been in effect for a long time, unchanged and held to quite rigidly.

So. Yes. I can absolutely see the Hierophant as standing for a crime boss. Now, whether that is what he stands for in your reading...that's a whole other question

 

[nisaba]

I know the heirophant can stand for religion, tradition etc. Structures in which in can be hard to implement change. I was wondering if it could be drawn if someone was involved in organized crimes?

Yes. It could be drawn as a warning to get out of the organisation.

It might even be drawn for those crime-bodies that have affiliations with the Catholic church.

Is there a spread to find out if someone is dead?

<smile> Why not develop one?

 

[Salena]

Yes. It could be drawn as a warning to get out of the organisation.

It might even be drawn for those crime-bodies that have affiliations with the Catholic church.


<smile> Why not develop one?

I have no idea how to develop a spread. Am I the first person curious about this? ( death)

I would suggest that the 8 Swords was the trapped and bound... Betrayed by friends.

With the Rider Waite deck the Sun card could easily be the death, The wall behind and the new person arisen. .. rebirth of the spirit...

The Hierophant is also a Major and as such also a karmic point in ones life...The T section ...left or right?...An organisation or freedom

As such, it feels as though this person tried to leave the organisation and was clipped....

blood in, blood out.

Summary...Yes the cards seem to suggest an untimely departure...

I was thinking the same and that maybe this person was wrestling with the decision to leave also.

Hierophant = Pope = the God Father = mafia boss

I didn't want to be that direct. Lol

The Mafia Boss Paul Castellano even had the nickname "The Pope" (the name for 'The Hierophant' in some tarot decks).

I think for me the Hierophant can be any form of group identifying and tradition. The thing that I struggle with is that it's a character with compassion and understanding but also conforming with society. I guess though in crime gangs you conform to the gang and it's rules and the head boss has that counselling type role with new recruits and young people. People join criminal gangs for safety and for people with something in common, they have a place where they fit in and some type of belonging, acceptance and respect. I do see this card as that (and didn't think of that before )

Yes this is what I was thinking although I was dancing around actually saying it. I didn't want to be controversial or wrong.

I think this shows only one side of him. The Hierophant's role in day to day life could be a pope or other form of clergy, but if that were the case he would still be called "pope," but he isn't. The role of the Hierophant is one of initiator to the mysteries, sort of the authority and wisdom that comes with experience. If I were to translate directly to modern term, I would say that more than anything the Hierophant represents the super-ego, the mindfulness that comes with interaction with others; social, moral and ethical rules. What those rules are (and consequently what the Hierophant initiates into) depends on the person. There are some thing that seem to feel innately wrong, and the Hierophant is the one who would tell us. More than dogma and authority, the Hierophant tells us our own rules on how to create our specific universe, and those rules come from the pure ideas only dreamt of in the Fool.

In mundane terms, a Hierophant is a teacher not necessarily for the power and authority, but rather a wise figure you could learn a lot from. Far from being disconnected from feeling and intuition, he is actually the one that tells you how to reveal the "hidden wisdom" of the Priestess. This process takes work, often difficult and backbreaking. The Hierophant is attributed to Taurus, which shows his dogged perseverance and stubbornness to get the job done. He is present when reading Tarot, for example: anyone can do it, but those that really shine are those that have put in time to build a relationship with themselves through the images.

The flip side really is the dogmatic, authoritarian authority figure, as you said. As for a crime boss, I suppose I could see that, at least the romanticized, Sopranos-style patriarch of the crime family. It could also come from a wish to change things for the better and becoming a criminal tyrant. Still, it isn't the first card that comes to mind, though.

What would be the first card?

Yes.

This.

The Hierophant is a leader who is all about tradition. The reason why he's usually a spiritual leader is because religion is where traditions are kept safe and maintained, unchanged for thousands of years—and the leader of a religion is usually the one who acts as caretaker of such traditions. Not just maintaining them, but teaching them. His view is that the spiritual is transmitted to the earthly by way of these traditions. Change the tradition, and you cut people off from the spirit.

There is nothing to say that the religion, traditions, or hierophant must be "good" or kind or nice, etc. Just learned, a leader, and of the view that traditions should be maintained and passed on generation to generation.

There are some very strong traditions in organized crime, and a leader of such would certainly be for maintaining them. Just watch "Goodfellas" sometime to see how very traditional such organizations were. Tribute had to be paid to the boss, "made men" couldn't be killed without negotiation, and who got to be "made" was a very small club...etc. These traditions all came from the "old country" and had been in effect for a long time, unchanged and held to quite rigidly.

So. Yes. I can absolutely see the Hierophant as standing for a crime boss. Now, whether that is what he stands for in your reading...that's a whole other question

The reason I leaned to the organized crime / gang scenario is based on the case. I had no indication that this person was religious. If he was I'm very unsure why he would associate with criminals.

 

[Thirteen]

I had no indication that this person was religious. If he was I'm very unsure why he would associate with criminals.

Being religious is no guarantee that a person will (1) not associate with criminals or (2) not be a criminal themselves (as charges of child molestation in the Catholic have shown us all too well—crime perpetrated, criminals not only associated with but protected). And, once again, organized criminals are not beyond being religious. Mafia members routinely baptized their kids, went to church and took communion, etc. And priests and churches associated with them, including taking money from them.

So, this person could be religious and associated with criminals rather than being, himself, a member of organized crime. But remember that the Hierophant doesn't have to stand for a religious leader at all. Any guardian of "tradition" can be a hierophant.