Historic Tarot : What We Do NOT Know.

[conversus]

Jung says that a goddess is needed for balance within the godhead (the psyche). In effect (if not in fact), Catholicism promoted Mary to that rank. Waite, being a self-styled Catholic, did the same with the Popess, which became Isis (Mary the virgin). While he was at it, the Empress got promoted to Venus (Mary the mother of god).

i still wonder why she is #2

I think that is an acceptable invitation to a statement one type conversation.

 

[Richard]

i still wonder why she is #2

I think that is an acceptable invitation to a statement one type conversation.

I don't have the faintest idea why the Popess was #2 in the TdM.

Waite intended for tarot to be an overlay on the hermetic tree of life (although he doesn't announce this fact until the 10 of Pentacles). After her promotion, it was convenient that #2 associates the Priestess with circle 2 (wisdom) on the tree, on the same level with the Empress, circle 3 (understanding). From another perspective, #2 entitles her to be the link between the son (circle 6) and the father (circle 1).

I don't want to get into the technical details. The basic idea in a nutshell is that there is a natural numerical correlation between the numbers on the hermetic tree of life and the numbers of the tarot cards, and this correlation was meaningful to Waite.

ETA. Don't shoot the messenger/ It's not my fault that it worked out like that.

 

[Rosanne]

I don't have the faintest idea why the Popess was #2 in the TdM.
........snip
ETA. Don't shoot the messenger/ It's not my fault that it worked out like that.

I think I phrased my 'do not know' question poorly.I understand Waite etc.
If you look in history forums, the sense that the Papesse is somehow 'holy' is discussed.
If this is so, how come she has low points and is next to the low life man? I do not know why she is there.
~Rosanne

 

[Richard]

I think I phrased my 'do not know' question poorly.I understand Waite etc.
If you look in history forums, the sense that the Papesse is somehow 'holy' is discussed.
If this is so, how come she has low points and is next to the low life man? I do not know why she is there.
~Rosanne

I don't know those discussions about the holiness of the Popess. What in the world could be holy or even admirable about a fake female Pope?

 

[ravenest]

Hence the low points oh ... I mean ?

 

[Rosanne]

Is it decided she is Pope Joan? Sister Manfreida? Canon Law? That is speculation that seems to be accepted. Me? Not so sure.
~Rosanne

 

[Yygdrasilian]

Serapeum

If the triumph of The Popess were symbolic of 'the Church', then it would have been logical for an orthodox Christian to place the earthly powers of Empress & Emperor between her and the triumph of The Pope. Yet, should The Fool play cipher to the sequence of 22 Hebrew letter-symbols, then the virginal virtues of the lunar goddess of the hunt, Diana/Artemis, may have been embodied by Church as 'sanctuary' from the 'profane' world. Perhaps humorously, The Pope, as the simple letter Vau (corresponding to the zodiacal house of Taurus), would then have evoked the Papal Bull - an edict defining orthodox practice within that Church. Etymologically, this 'bull' is related to the Greek 'phallos' (similar in function to Vau as a 'nail') and, thus, might have had a thing or two to say about how 'the law' of 'the creator' ultimately applies to that 'Church'. And even earthly powers find themselves sandwiched between that 'debate'.

 

[Huck]

i still wonder why she is #2

In German we have a specific playing card expression "Jungfrau" (= virgin), which is used, when somebody got no trick at all (in trick taking games). In trick taking games this might be very bad (double loss occasionally or other heavy loss), in specific other "negative trick games" like "Ramsch" or "Null" (= zero) in Skat, where the game goal is to get "no points" or "no trick", it's very good, as it doubles the negative point value of the unlucky player, who won most of the points.

"doubling" is naturally connected to the number "2".

"Virgins" (Maids, Junckfrawe) had been in card playing decks long before "Trionfi" became a name for very specific cards (c. 1440), so long before the "Popess in Tarot".

1377 John of Rheinfelden knew 4 maids in a deck with 4x15 structure (with 5 courts).
1455 the Hofämterspiel knew 4 Junckfrawe, but connected them to number "6".

In the JoR deck the Maid was connected to number 12 (which means 10+2), Queens had 14 (10 + 4) and Kings 15 (10+5)

http://a-tarot.eu/p/2013/jor.jpg
... so Arne Jönssen (expert for the JoR text) in "Schweizer Spielkarten 1" (1998) p. 141

So the maid had here a connection to "2" again.

In the common escalation process during a card game in Germany "Contra - Re(contra) - Bock" is said for "doubling", so we get ...

Contra = x2
Re = x4
Bock = x8

.... whereby "Re" associates "Rex" = (king) and "Bock" is an expression, which is also used for a horse (it's slang for a horse, usually used for male sheep or male goat).

Now Rex = King has 4 points in German games usually, Queen has 3 points, and the Jack has two points.

In Tarot trumps ...
the Emperor (trump 4) replaces the king (point value 4)
The Empress (trump 3) replaces the queen (point value 3)
The Popess (trump 2) as the Jack has 2 points

JoR's row had ...

15 king (10 + 5)
14 queen (10 + 4)
13 Ober (upper Marshal, often on horse) (10 + 3)
12 Maid (10 + 2)
11 Unter (lower Marshal, often foot soldier) (10 + 1)

Comparing it with the Tarot row, we have, that the Ober as horseman has disappeared in the row.

15 King - 4 Emperor
14 Queen - 3 Empress
(13 disappeared horseman)
12 Maid - 2 Popess
11 Unter - 1 Magician

In an early Trionfi card version (PMB, and that what descended from it) the horseman reappeared, on the card Justice, which usually has the number 8 (but not in PMB, where we don't know numbers for).

http://a-tarot.eu/p/2013/knight.jpg
... here in a forgery of 19th century

************

So we would have (if Justice was 8) ...

x8 ... Ober = "Bock" = horseman

x4 ... King = "Re" = Emperor

x2 ... Maid = "Contra" = Junckfrawe, Popessa

 

[Rosanne]

Finally something that makes sense.
I have looked at dice to see if there was an answer there.
So...
did Germany have a historic Spring Virgin or a May Queen?
or was a Nun considered more a virgin than an unmarried girl?
~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

Finally something that makes sense.
I have looked at dice to see if there was an answer there.
So...
did Germany have a historic Spring Virgin or a May Queen?
or was a Nun considered more a virgin than an unmarried girl?
~Rosanne

John of Rheinfelden thought of ladies at the court and uses no other association (as far I know).

The time of 1377 and little before was accompanied by St. Vitus dancing, which seems to have been then an extreme phenomenon.

Possibly both, "new" playing cards and "new" St.Vitus dancing, had a natural context by the emperor journey to Aachen in summer 1376.
Bohemia (where the emperor had his capital) had an intensive St. Vitus cult, and it possibly also had playing cards earlier than elsewhere. St. Vitus dancing was also intensive around Luxembourg, where the emperor dynasty came from (still the Echternach dancing is a celebrated activity).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_procession_of_Echternach

In Florence there was a relation between 1st of May celebrations and St. Giovanni celebrations (24th of June).
St. Vitus (15th of June) and San Giovanni were correlated, both are midsummer days. St. Vitus was merged with Svantevit, the Czech form of Svetovid, a Slavic sun god. Cause the similarity of the name, St. Vitus became of importance in the German East colonization. The "German East colonization" was the natural business of the emperor, the secure West was the business of the three arch bishops (Trier, Mainz, Cologne). The emperor had his capital usually in the East, in direction to the pagans.

A German dictionary tells, that the first recorded form of "Mailehen" is proven for the better society of Cologne in 1538. Generally the Rhineland is noted first for the distribution of this custom.
For Florence I remember, that 1st of May till 24th of June had been festivity season (well to understand, if one considers the Florentine climate). Perhaps two Medici popes caused a new May fashion in Cologne?
Cologne had generally good connections to Italy.

When Petrarca visited Cologne in 1333, the citizens celebrated just San Giovanni. He was enjoyed about the many beautiful girls.