Horary Readings Round 7 - Questions

[Ronia]

OK I'll take a look

Thank you.

Meanwhile I checked some notes I have as I got curious about Lord 7 in the 12th and got some interesting info: possible meanings include suicidal thinking, being in despair, illegal or inappropriate activity, fear, prison, hospital (being seriously ill), any kind of difficulties that may prevent normal and joyous living (include health, finances, relatives, etc), and specifically in romantic horaries may signify a desire to keep all secret or being hidden and/or inaccessible. I think it's interesting.

I'm now on Venus in the 12th technically conjunct the Ascendant, less than 3 degrees. I've never had a horary like that before. On the other hand, she's not rising, 1st house, which means she shouldn't be taken as a co-significator, so I'm taking her just as a more beneficial presence. Somehow, not exactly clear how yet.

But my main wonder remains the interruption caused by Jupiter... One benefic on the Ascendant, the other (and bigger) in the game, it is an interesting chart, to me.

 

[Minderwiz]

Minderwiz, when you have the time, could you please give me a hand with a chart I cast today, december 4, at 10:42 am in Toronto. Question is about possible/eventual romantic development between me and X (the letter man LOL) till the end of this year (I have some weird feelings about this lately). I see he is in my sign, good, he will sextile me, good too. However, I'll first trine Jupiter.

No the Moon will sextile Saturn first The Moon sextiles Saturn on Thursday 5th December, the trine between Saturn and Jupiter is not perfected till 13th December. Always consult an ephemeris if there is any doubt on which aspect comes first. Saturn and Jupiter are extremely slow, even though it's a mutual application (so they're heading towards each other at full snail speed). The Moon is the Astrological equivalent of the Red Bull F1 car and will easily beat the snails, even though they have much less distance to cover.

Meanwhile I checked some notes I have as I got curious about Lord 7 in the 12th and got some interesting info: possible meanings include suicidal thinking, being in despair, illegal or inappropriate activity, fear, prison, hospital (being seriously ill), any kind of difficulties that may prevent normal and joyous living (include health, finances, relatives, etc), and specifically in romantic horaries may signify a desire to keep all secret or being hidden and/or inaccessible. I think it's interesting.

Don't try to read too much into the chart. What do you know about the Moon? It's in the twelfth and the twelfth is inconjunct the Ascendant. What is common to all houses that are inconjunct - whatever is going on (the planet in them) cannot be seen from the Ascendant. So all you know is almost literally nothing. You have no idea what he's up to. He's out of your sight. In practice that could mean any particular thing that qualifies as such. He might be in prison, or on a trans Artic walk or pony trekking (the twelfth rules large animals) or driving cattle or have joined a monastery, or he may just be pottering around at home but not posting on Facebook or Twitter.

I'm now on Venus in the 12th technically conjunct the Ascendant, less than 3 degrees. I've never had a horary like that before. On the other hand, she's not rising, 1st house, which means she shouldn't be taken as a co-significator, so I'm taking her just as a more beneficial presence. Somehow, not exactly clear how yet.

You can treat Venus as first house because she's less than 5 degrees from the cusp (Ascendant) furthermore, if you were really so inclined you could enlist Venus as a natural significator of marriage for a woman, as per Lilly and Frawley (his being the Sun). However you don't need to do this as the Moon/Saturn sextile will perfect before anything else happens.

 

[Ronia]

Minderwiz, thank you for the help. I knew the Moon is faster but I thought less than 2 degrees separation between Jupiter and Saturn should be taken into cosnideration, no? I mean Lilly gives them more as orb... I, of course, would prefer to ignore that aspect (LOL) but I do want to learn as well. Which is why I checked again the orbs Lilly gave and decided I should take the Jupiter interference. So, am I correct otherwise assuming something beneficial should happen?

Thanks for the thoughts on the 12th. I do know where he is but, of course, it doesn't make him closer, it's none of the 12th house things, and I know what he's doing (working which brings us to his 6th may be, not my 12th). I keep a close eye on him, I'm not sure how the 12th would play in this case. Based on what I know, I'd rather see it as feeling a bit down or (which is true) being inaccessible. Anyhow, I thought it was interesting to look at the 12th meanings.

OK, if I take Venus as 1st house, am I right assuming she describes my own condition (and well)? This is one thing I read about a planet conjunct the Ascendant, that it describes the querent (I've seen this with Saturn and it was correct)? Sorry, trying to learn.

 

[Minderwiz]

Saturn and Mars are in orb but the aspect is not perfected till they reach the exact same degree and that's what counts for prohibition. Moon and Saturn are also in orb...there's an applying sextile. What mtters is which perfects first. In this case Saturn and Jupiter don,t even reah a partile trine before the Moon perfects with Saturn.

Venus could be used s a signification for your condition...relationships are an important issue, Lilly might also take it into consideration as giving physical information about you as he seems to be into moles, scars, and other physical features. As this is a relationship question you can use it directly as a personal significator. You can't use the Moon as he's got it.

 

[Ronia]

Saturn and Mars are in orb but the aspect is not perfected till they reach the exact same degree and that's what counts for prohibition. Moon and Saturn are also in orb...there's an applying sextile. What mtters is which perfects first. In this case Saturn and Jupiter don,t even reah a partile trine before the Moon perfects with Saturn.

Hooray! Thank you! I just wanted to make sure it wasn't wishful thinking ( the horary situation not the rest which is clearly that LOL).

Venus could be used s a signification for your condition...relationships are an important issue, Lilly might also take it into consideration as giving physical information about you as he seems to be into moles, scars, and other physical features.

Um... I guess I'll pass then. LOL

As this is a relationship question you can use it directly as a personal significator. You can't use the Moon as he's got it.

Thanks, I don't really need it here but just in case, for future use.

 

[Ronia]

Minderwiz, only one more question (about a different chart!). I was reading this article: http://starlightknightastrology.com/2011/11/12/horary-technique-receptions/ . I have a chart cast in the spring in which both significators are in mutual reception: Mercury is in Pisces , Jupiter is in Gemini. However, Mercury is at 25 Pisces while Jupiter is at 13 Gemini thus they are not to have an aspect soon, they had a square but it separated. In this article it talks about the relation between signs (at one point) where there is mutual reception. I wonder if in horary we look at the square between signs/houses (like in Hellenistic you said they did sometime ago) or do we look for a planetary aspect only, in cases of mutual reception? Reception is a bit tricky to manifest, I want to learn more about it, thank you. (there is no other planet to interfere, nor to help).

I mean, I know Lilly says mutual reception can bring perfection without the need of an aspect but I was wondering if square houses are considered betetr than adjacent, for example? Like Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio are in mutual reception by sign but there can be no aspect even between the houses. Is there any such distinction in horary?

Sorry, last comment on the previous chart (from the previous post) with the sextile. I had some time to check again the skyscript forum and I realized I didn't even look at dignities. I wish I hadn't checked the forum. I went back to Bonatti's perfection rules and now I see that Saturn is peregrine, lacking any dignity in Scorpio and being in such poor condition, he (I) should not receive the Moon although she applies from his own sign? Is that so, Minderwiz? Because if that's waht Bonatti meant, then I'll have to say he was wrong. LOL I mean, I'll gladly accept the Moon. But seriosuly, as usual with these texts, it seems nearly impossible to get perfection. Moon is in her detriment too although she is the night ruler... So, a detriment Moon applies to a peregrine Saturn from his domicile. Bonatti seem to say "no", I say "yes" but I'm not an expert. However, I know what I want, where am I mistaking in reading and understanding his text?

P.S. I tend to think that application from a point where the receiving planet is dignified should be "liked" by the receiving planet regardless the receiving planet's current condition... But seems I'm wrong according to theory and right based on my own feelings in reality. Somethign about this requirement doesn't sound true to me. Why would the receiving planet need to be dignified? It may be sick or sad or depressed or broke but it doesn't mean it wouldn't like a welcome guest, no?

 

[theboomz]

Can I ask a question? Do I need to give my birth info? I didn't see that in the thread, but I don't know how you're doing this, ha ha.

My question is,

My husband knows good and well that we are missing out on a lot of money because he's being stubborn. Is there any time frame where he will lighten up to idea of investing? Everything has been shown to him on paper, and he sees it, but he's stuck in his old ways.
It's not risky, I've been showing him the numbers for months now. :/

Let me know if you need any more info. Any advice on when and how to change his mind will be welcome.

 

[Minderwiz]

Can I ask a question? Do I need to give my birth info? I didn't see that in the thread, but I don't know how you're doing this, ha ha.

My question is,

My husband knows good and well that we are missing out on a lot of money because he's being stubborn. Is there any time frame where he will lighten up to idea of investing? Everything has been shown to him on paper, and he sees it, but he's stuck in his old ways.
It's not risky, I've been showing him the numbers for months now. :/

Let me know if you need any more info. Any advice on when and how to change his mind will be welcome.

OK, I think that I understand the situation but I'd like to consider rephrasing or redefining the question. Your question is about your husband's attitude and it seems to me that he might honestly believe the investment is a bad idea, so I'd like to look at it in the broader context of the investment itself. Perhaps, 'Will we both agree on making this investment?' which comes close to your original question. It should also allow me to distinguish the reasons why he has opposed it. Also can you tell me if the investment is financial or involves the purcahse of real estate.

Let me know if that's acceptable or whether I'm missing an important point.

 

[Minderwiz]

Minderwiz, only one more question (about a different chart!). I was reading this article: http://starlightknightastrology.com/2011/11/12/horary-technique-receptions/ . I have a chart cast in the spring in which both significators are in mutual reception: Mercury is in Pisces , Jupiter is in Gemini. However, Mercury is at 25 Pisces while Jupiter is at 13 Gemini thus they are not to have an aspect soon, they had a square but it separated. In this article it talks about the relation between signs (at one point) where there is mutual reception. I wonder if in horary we look at the square between signs/houses (like in Hellenistic you said they did sometime ago) or do we look for a planetary aspect only, in cases of mutual reception? Reception is a bit tricky to manifest, I want to learn more about it, thank you. (there is no other planet to interfere, nor to help).

The trouble with Reception is that it depends on whose explanation you are looking at. Reception is one of the oldest forms of relationship between two planets but the definitions of it have changed over time. The Hellenistic Astrologers certainly allowed for circumstances where one planet was in the domicile of another and the two were in signs connected by a major aspect - for example Jupiter in Scorpio and Mars in Aquarius. which would be seen as mitigating the negative effects of the square and building a stronger more favourable (than if the dignity of Mars was not involved) relationship between them. They only bothered with sign, so the degrees were immaterial and it didn't matter whether there was application, separation or no degree aspect at all.

They also allowed for 'exchange of domiciles' as being mutually beneficial because the two planets are supporting each other. The did not require an aspect but one would be preferable - a bit like Lilly's allowing mutual reception to perfect a matter.

The term 'Reception' though wasn't used (though the examples clearly show that this is what was meant). Reception as a term is medieval and there you get some tightening up. Reception, even mutual reception, requires an applying aspect and the two planets to be in orb. Medieval Astrologers also allowed mutual reception through lesser dignities, as did Lilly. It's not clear at all whether the Hellenistic Astrologers allowed exaltation, Triplicity, Bounds or Decans to be involved - and it's most likely that they only kept to Domiciles - as their expression attests.

So is what Bonatti wrote, the real definition of Reception - it's a view and a view that was taken strongly on board by European Astrologers but Bonatti got his material from Arab Astrologers and appears to have been unaware of different ways of looking at things.

Within a Horary question, I think mutual reception by Sign. as per Lilly, is strong evidence for perfection of the matter but an applying aspect would be even better. For Reception, I'd want the applying aspect in horary because we are usually dealing with future events, not past ones (though if you do get a question involving past actions you might consider Reception with separating aspects - though that's a personal opinion.

I mean, I know Lilly says mutual reception can bring perfection without the need of an aspect but I was wondering if square houses are considered betetr than adjacent, for example? Like Mars in Libra and Venus in Scorpio are in mutual reception by sign but there can be no aspect even between the houses. Is there any such distinction in horary?

I've not come across that distinction being made in horary, though I haven't yet read some of the medieval texts (too many texts, not enough time LOL). However I have come across something in Hellenistic Astrology (which appears to predate Horary) which might help. Jupiter in Sagittarius and Mercury in Virgo (for example) might well be seen as a positive aspect because of the involvement of Jupiter, and because it involves exchange of domiciles, it would be boosted still further. It would certainly be stronger than Mercury in Virgo and Venus in Libra, which does involve a benefic but has no aspect to join them together, the same with your Venus in Libra and Mars in Scorpio.

Sorry, last comment on the previous chart (from the previous post) with the sextile. I had some time to check again the skyscript forum and I realized I didn't even look at dignities. I wish I hadn't checked the forum. I went back to Bonatti's perfection rules and now I see that Saturn is peregrine, lacking any dignity in Scorpio and being in such poor condition, he (I) should not receive the Moon although she applies from his own sign? Is that so, Minderwiz? Because if that's waht Bonatti meant, then I'll have to say he was wrong. LOL I mean, I'll gladly accept the Moon. But seriosuly, as usual with these texts, it seems nearly impossible to get perfection. Moon is in her detriment too although she is the night ruler... So, a detriment Moon applies to a peregrine Saturn from his domicile. Bonatti seem to say "no", I say "yes" but I'm not an expert. However, I know what I want, where am I mistaking in reading and understanding his text?

P.S. I tend to think that application from a point where the receiving planet is dignified should be "liked" by the receiving planet regardless the receiving planet's current condition... But seems I'm wrong according to theory and right based on my own feelings in reality. Somethign about this requirement doesn't sound true to me. Why would the receiving planet need to be dignified? It may be sick or sad or depressed or broke but it doesn't mean it wouldn't like a welcome guest, no?

I'll just check my understanding of Bonatti first and then get back to you

 

[theboomz]

OK, I think that I understand the situation but I'd like to consider rephrasing or redefining the question. Your question is about your husband's attitude and it seems to me that he might honestly believe the investment is a bad idea, so I'd like to look at it in the broader context of the investment itself. Perhaps, 'Will we both agree on making this investment?' which comes close to your original question. It should also allow me to distinguish the reasons why he has opposed it. Also can you tell me if the investment is financial or involves the purcahse of real estate.

Let me know if that's acceptable or whether I'm missing an important point.

Perfect, and no, not real estate.