How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

[Grigori]

I, like Greg Stanton, do not like that people insist it is there (Kabbalah) We really do not know. We can only speculate.

Indeed! I do not insist it is there, and would not insist Ange or anyone else should embark on a study of it. In fact, I'm quite certain it was not intended to be a feature of Tarot decks. I think even the Crowley's and the Yygdrasilian's amongst us would agree with that, despite having devoted much time to considering its depths.

Some people find the syncronocity between the two systems argument enough that they are related. Others find it curious but not compelling. Most don't really give a damn.

Qabalah it is very certainly intended to be a feature of some tarot decks and within those systems many find it of value. I'm just asking that no-one tell me there is no elephant in the room, cause I just tripped over the great hulking thing, and my throbbing bruised toe tells me otherwise. I don't expect anyone else to feel my pain I also shall not deny it when they tell me a cat just scratched their bullocks

 

[Greg Stanton]

This is a fairly tiresome argument, which is barely related to the topic at hand.

I was responding to a statement made earlier in this thread by Umbrae. Why would you suddenly jump into this and call it "tiresome"?

However when I discovered the Qabalah, this study was enriched. Without knowingly doing so, I'd embarked on a spiritual study, that was very healing for me. I'd found a spiritual system, that was able to speak through the language of tarot (which was already familar to me) and address many concerns that have previously been very disturbing to me. Why would you campaign to dismiss that?

Please read the quote below from my earlier post and explain to me exactly how I am campaigning to "dismiss" Kabbalah from the study of tarot.

As tarot seems to mould itself to each individual's consciousness in a different way, there is certainly no harm in incorporating Kabbalah into your tarot studies.

I said that there's no evidence that the tarot was originally designed from Kabbalistic principles -- and there isn't. I also never said "don't study Kabbalah." I only said that it doesn't work for ME.

Also, Yygdrasilian, don't be condescending. I never mentioned The Book of Thoth, yet you say that I "haven't personally made sense of it." Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're not as smart as you.

Sorry if I seem defensive, but I really don't appreciate being called "tiresome" and stupid.

Also, I'm a little touchy on the subject at the moment. Someone loaned me a book called "Idiot's Guide to Tarot" or something like that, and asked me what I thought of it. Honestly, it wasn't a bad beginner's book. However, the history section was totally bogus, claiming tarot cards originated with the Kabbalah.

 

[Grigori]

I was responding to a statement made earlier in this thread by Umbrae. Why would you suddenly jump into this and call it "tiresome"?

Indeed, only one reference to it in this thread. But the same reference found in other threads, also when barely related to the topic. Umbrae was referencing the value of Crowley's use of Qabalah, which is certainly as valid as any other, and you diverted into a discussion on practical magic. Connected certainly, but not the same thing.

Please read the quote below from my earlier post and explain to me exactly how I am campaigning to "dismiss" Kabbalah from the study of tarot.

You certainly are not dismissing Kabbalah from the study of tarot. Only the study of variations that are not to your liking and their practical application. Also the existence of anyone else who would find them of benefit. Its
rather like acknowledging the value of automobiles though preferring to fly, while at the same time claming that all who get to work in a Holden are deluding themselves for thinking they have yet left their garage.

Also, Yygdrasilian, don't be condescending. I never mentioned The Book of Thoth

No, just its author and his system of magick of which the deck is a visual illustration and the accompanying text an explanation.

Sorry if I seem defensive, but I really don't appreciate being called "tiresome" and stupid.

I'm also sorry if I seem combative, but I find it offensive for anyone to dismiss the value of any spiritual system because it is not personally appealing. Intended or not, this feels as a very deliberate and persistent attack. Were someone to apply similar statements to anyone besides Crowley, a mob would be rising.

 

[Greg Stanton]

I'm also sorry if I seem combative, but I find it offensive for anyone to dismiss the value of any spiritual system because it is not personally appealing. Intended or not, this feels as a very deliberate and persistent attack. Were someone to apply similar statements to anyone besides Crowley, a mob would be rising.

Never said what you said I did. I only have a problem with people making up history. Never dismissed anyone's spiritual system, ever, ever, ever. My issue was with people who want to re-write history with pure speculation about the origin of the tarot, and it was never intended as a dismissal of anyone, or their "existence" (don't know where you got that one either).

 

[Yygdrasilian]

Concentrate on the Finger & You'll Miss All that Celestial Glory

Also, Yygdrasilian, don't be condescending. I never mentioned The Book of Thoth, yet you say that I "haven't personally made sense of it." Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're not as smart as you.

Sorry if I seem defensive, but I really don't appreciate being called "tiresome" and stupid.

Whoa, slow down there, gunsmoke.
I know quite well from your posts that you're not stupid.
And what I called tiresome was the back and forth about whether or not there is a correlation 'tween the Qabballah Tree and the Tarot.
There is, at least in Crowley's work, whether or not you choose to agree with this Fact. It is demonstrable, but much more fun to figure out on your own.
What I find strange is your vehement resistance against learning how it works. As if, on principle, you refuse to entertain the notion. Why is that?

 

[Greg Stanton]

Whoa, slow down there, gunsmoke.
I know quite well from your posts that you're not stupid.
And what I called tiresome was the back and forth about whether or not there is a correlation 'tween the Qabballah Tree and the Tarot.
There is, at least in Crowley's work, whether or not you choose to agree with this Fact. It is demonstrable, but much more fun to figure out on your own.
What I find strange is your vehement resistance against learning how it works. As if, on principle, you refuse to entertain the notion. Why is that?

Not at all. If you're using the Thoth, you absolutely should study Kabbalah (or rather, the western occultists' version, Qabbalah). I never said otherwise.

Just have a problem with people re-writing history, as I stated in my post to Similia above. Crowley's and any tarot derived from the Golden Dawn is traditional tarot re-worked to conform with Qabbalistic principles, period. There is no evidence to support the theory that tarot cards were originally designed using Kabbalah as a model. That's all I was saying.

 

[Yygdrasilian]

Ahhhhh, yes - I see now.

And I put it to you that there are very compelling reasons for considering that Tarot and Kabballah are both derived from an even older tradition - reasons which only become clear once you solve Crowley's Tarot.

 

[Milfoil]

Ahhhhh, yes - I see now.

And I put it to you that there are very compelling reasons for considering that Tarot and Kabballah are both derived from an even older tradition - reasons which only become clear once you solve Crowley's Tarot.

I would echo that. Every system of belief on this planet, from my own research, has stemmed from the truly ancient, pantheistic, shamanic understanding of the universe especially the tree of life which is still a key feature of the surviving pagan beliefs all around the globe. Everything else, Judaism, Tarot, Catholocism, Islam, buddhism . . . they all have their roots in the earlier (global) animistic beliefs whether they like to admit it or not.

All we seem to do as humans, is keep adding more intellectual fluff to the mix until it blurrs the boundaries of understanding.

 

[Ange]

From my point of veiw....and as I said before, each to their own.....I wouldn't learn this simply because it has something to do with Crowley.... If I see something about Crowley I do not read it. If I see something he used, I do not use it. Shallow maybe, not exploring more, but that is my veiw and belief, as others have their veiws.

I know there will always be differing veiws on him and the Golden Dawn and all who followed, but as I said, each to their own.

My person preference is to steer clear, and to go with saying a little prayer before I pull cards.....using Angel cards too......both leaning more to the Christian side of things.
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Originally Posted by Yygdrasilian
Ahhhhh, yes - I see now.

And I put it to you that there are very compelling reasons for considering that Tarot and Kabballah are both derived from an even older tradition - reasons which only become clear once you solve Crowley's Tarot.

--------------------

So as it will never become clear to me since I won't have anything to do with Crowley and his gang, then I will go without using it...
Ang x

 

[Sophie]

From my point of view....and as I said before, each to their own.....I wouldn't learn this simply because it has something to do with Crowley.... If I see something about Crowley I do not read it. If I see something he used, I do not use it. Shallow maybe, not exploring more, but that is my veiw and belief, as others have their veiws.

I know there will always be differing veiws on him and the Golden Dawn and all who followed, but as I said, each to their own.

My person preference is to steer clear, and to go with saying a little prayer before I pull cards.....using Angel cards too......both leaning more to the Christian side of things.
----------------

Originally Posted by Yygdrasilian
Ahhhhh, yes - I see now.

And I put it to you that there are very compelling reasons for considering that Tarot and Kabballah are both derived from an even older tradition - reasons which only become clear once you solve Crowley's Tarot.

--------------------

So as it will never become clear to me since I won't have anything to do with Crowley and his gang, then I will go without using it...
Ang x

I've been following this thread without any real intention of participating until I read the above quote.

Kabbalah was not invented by Crowley, nor was the link between Kabbalah and Tarot made by Crowley. He was one of many to have made it. To dismiss that link simply because Crowley made it would be like saying you don't want to use tarot because Crowley used it, or don't want to read about the Ancient Egyptian religion - one of the chief inspirations for Christianity - because Crowley studied it. Crowley studied many things. You don't have to agree with his conclusions, but to dismiss a subject simply because he touched it is rather mind-boggling.

As Gavriela wrote, Kabbalah is a spiritual science designed to get us closer to God. It is very ancient and has been perfected over centuries, but its purpose hasn't changed. And getting close to God is its sole purpose, any other use of it being extraneous, a bonus, if you like. That's also the case when Kabbalah is associated with Tarot - Tarot when associated with Kabbalah becomes another tool that allows us imperfect humans to climb that Tree up to the Divine. And because there are many paths to God, not one way up that Tree is "the right one". The other uses for the Kabbalistic Tarot are extras - the bonus I mentioned above: they are not the aim of it.

There is no obligation to learn the Kabbalah. It's not necessary in order to know the Tarot, and there are other sciences that are designed to get us close to God - for example Yoga. But if you are drawn to the Kabbalistic Tarot and reject it because Crowley did it, then my answer would be simply - find another tradition of Kabbalistic Tarot. Crowley didn't monopolise the field.



BTW...Crowley worked quite a bit with Angels too