I love my new/old Grimaud Marseille deck

[Rafaël]

about the epaulettes on LE CHARIOT

Quote:
[what's up with the faces on the shoulders of the Chariot, and the King and Knight of Swords?]

Those masks (one looking at the past & the other looking at the future would be a reference to the Greek myth of Janus. Look here on wikipedia as a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus

 

[mary ventura]

The faces aren't exactly the same on some decks-- on the Rodes-Sanchez (which is in the mail to me ) they look like the comedy / tragedy masks

http://hex52mountain.com/tarot/RodesSanchezChariot.jpg

Of course that's not the original drawing; it's re-created (I think that's what you call it when they don't make a copy of the original deck).

On my Grimaud (Ancien Tarot de Marseille) they're not really a smile mask and a sad mask; they look more like a sad mask and a bewildered mask.

http://hex52mountain.com/tarot/GrimaudChariot.jpg


My Noblet's Chariot doesn't have faces on his shoulders at all.


I can't believe how un-observant I am. I've been looking at my Grimaud deck for a couple of weeks now, and I just noticed last night that the Lover isn't wearing pants !

Mary V

 

[venicebard]

The faces aren't exactly the same on some decks-- on the Rodes-Sanchez (which is in the mail to me ) they look like the comedy / tragedy masks

Yes, it appears the Rodes-Sanchez deck interpreted the image correctly.

On my Grimaud (Ancien Tarot de Marseille) they're not really a smile mask and a sad mask; they look more like a sad mask and a bewildered mask.

Well, but what else would they likely represent if not the masks of Thespis?

My Noblet's Chariot doesn't have faces on his shoulders at all.

Noblet is missing many important details. I believe I ended up deciding it was a satirical rebellion from main-line TdM; it certainly is a degenerate form thereof. Though most think the Noblet an early groping towards TdM or an early form of TdM, I see TdM as the original and Noblet as the offshoot. In fact, I see the Cary sheet as an offshoot as well, as it lacks important details of the (bardic) original. But mine is a minority viewpoint, of course.

I can't believe how un-observant I am. I've been looking at my Grimaud deck for a couple of weeks now, and I just noticed last night that the Lover isn't wearing pants !

I believe it would be more correct to say he is wearing tights (for his role in the movie "Men in Tights" no doubt).

 

[mary ventura]

I believe it would be more correct to say he is wearing tights (for his role in the movie "Men in Tights" no doubt).

They look like bare legs to me. The Knave of Wands is wearing flesh-colored tights, and it's a totally different look (see picture).
You can see the Lover's bare feet, and his muscular and skeletal structure, whereas the Knave's legs look completely different. As a retired nurse, I gotta say they're legs

http://hex52mountain.com/tarot/NakedLegs.jpg


Mary V

 

[coredil]

As a retired nurse, I gotta say they're legs

From my point of view, I appreciate that you take this with humor.

I post some scans that shows a little bit where does the the Grimaud TDM (the Marteau-Grimaud) comes from.

In 1891 Grimaud bought Lequard et Mignot.
Lequart et Mignot had an Ancien Tarot Italien deck (BTW with Pape and Papesse).
This deck was further edited by Grimaud with exactly the same drawing for the majors (except creating Juno and Jupiter instead of Pape and Papesse).
At this point of my research, it seems that that is at this date that the minors have been redrawn by Grimaud leading to the deck Arnoult-Grimaud (scan left)

Already in 1888 Grimaud and Camoin made a fusion.
Camoin had woodplates from 1760.
These plates were used in 1968 (or 1970 I dont remember) by Camoin for a unique reissue of the deck with colors, according to the notes that come with the deck, from the 18 century (scan middle)

In 1930 Paul Marteau re-worked the Arnoult-Grimaud deck.
His reworking consists mostly about recoloring.
Pape and Papess reappear and only some very minor details were made here and there at the line drawings of the Arnoult-Grimaud.
(scan right)

As you can see, the Arnout-Grimaud does have pants, the Camoin and the Marteau-Grimaud does not have pants.

There is a very interesting theory made by Flornoy.
It is to find here:
http://www.letarot.com/dossiers-chauds/heritiers-de-Nicolas-Conver/index.html
He suggests that Marteau first wrote his book, and the meanings in his book were based on a Camoin TDM as seen on the scan in the middle.
As Marteaus explanations are tight associated to the colors, he had to re-color the deck the same way as his explanations or ... rewrite his book!

I find this theory interesting, but I am not sure if it is right.
Flornoy writes that there is an early version of Marteaus book from 1929 with Camoin pictures in the book.
I do have such an edition of Marteaus book with glued cards of the Camoin deck, but it is from ... 1970!
Marteaus book appeared also to a wide puplic in 1949.
On Marteaus deck it is written 1930, but it is difficult to know wether the deck really appeared in 1930!

Anyway when you read Marteaus meanings they are indeed tight associated to the color of his deck and they fit exactly with Camoin colors and not with the Arnoult-Grimaud deck.

Now wether the Lover must have pants or not? I dont know

On a personal note I must confess that I am still not a friend of meanings based on colors or ornamentation with a TDM.

Best regards

 

[mary ventura]

TdM has such an interesting history. I think the fact that there are gaps and that we don't know everything for certain makes it the more compelling.

The card that has the Lover wearing pants -- they're different colors ... makes me think that he's not "of one mind" -- he's between two women and they're both hanging on him. Like they say "part of me wants this, and part of me wants that ... "

On a personal note I must confess that I am still not a friend of meanings based on colors or ornamentation with a TDM

By ornamentation, do you mean the different leaves, flowers, etc. on the pips? I know from reading this forum that many people have intuitive reactions from them. I'm such a beginner in TdM, and I really don't know what I'm doing -- the leaves and flowers don't really resonate with me. But lately I do feel a response to the different number / suit combinations. Anyway, I'm definitely enjoying this journey. When I first got interested in tarot, I was attracted to the TdM, visually, but didn't really know what to do with it. Maybe I still don't, but that doesn't bother me anymore

Anyway, thanks for the interesting posts. Your research (on another thread) actually helped me figure out exactly which of the Grimaud decks I have.

Mary V

 

[coredil]

By ornamentation, do you mean the different leaves, flowers, etc. on the pips? I know from reading this forum that many people have intuitive reactions from them. I'm such a beginner in TdM, and I really don't know what I'm doing -- the leaves and flowers don't really resonate with me. But lately I do feel a response to the different number / suit combinations. Anyway, I'm definitely enjoying this journey. When I first got interested in tarot, I was attracted to the TdM, visually, but didn't really know what to do with it. Maybe I still don't, but that doesn't bother me anymore

Anyway, thanks for the interesting posts. Your research (on another thread) actually helped me figure out exactly which of the Grimaud decks I have.

Mary V

Thanks for your comments

Please do not feel confused with my satetement about ornamentation!
This is really my very own view.

Maybe I can citate Eudes Picard from his book "Manuel Synthetique et pratique du Tarot".
At the beginning of his book, he writes (talking about the ornaments on the minors of a TDM):

However, a difficulty appears; it is to distinguish where the symbol of the plant ends in order to become an ornament.
One feel that beside the symbol sometimes the fantasy goes its own way (makes carreer).

This is of course a much more moderate point of view than mine

Though fascinated by the TDM I still believe Tarot was a game at his beginning and indeed I believe that the drawings for the minors were simply ornamental drawings to express the numeral value of the card.

I am also quite sceptical with authors who says how important colors or line drawing details are, also sometimes asserting that a specific color would be the only real and original one is though it is quite evident that colors or line drawings are susceptible to changes with almost each new printing of any deck.
We can observe this today with many modern decks even with our accurate modern way of printing!

I use Tarot to read and do find it a wonderfull tool, but it is for me much easier to use decks which were expressly created to read (beginning with Etteilla).

Best regards

 

[nisaba]

I just picked up a copy of this deck.

Years before I realised I was a collector I discarded a Marseilles that I had picked up somewhere, and when I realised I was a collector, kicked myself for it. I've since picked up a few similar decks: the Bologna, the Thunder Bay and one or two unashamedly modern Marseilles like our very own Major Tom's, but in the back of my mind I was always looking at online scans trying to recognise the same Marseilles that I had discarded.

I think I found it. This one. As soon as I opened the box, I had a hot-and-cold shock of recognition. This is it. The only difference to the copy I owned 25 years ago, is that I don't remember the copyright notices (that doesn't mean they weren't there, just that I don't remember them).

I'm not a big Marseilles girl - if I'm going to go historical I like to go right back to the Visconti decks - but I'm delighted to have this deck back, which is a part of my own personal Tarot history.

 

[mary ventura]

It's nice that a deck like the one you had found its way back to you.

It's been about a year since I started this thread. My TdM collection of 2 decks has grown to 15, and I hope I'm through buying decks. The last two that I bought are so delicious that I'm hoping they'll spoil me for more TdMs. One is the Tarot de Trieste (Angelo Valla) and the other is the Tarocco Di Marsiglia Svizzera (Il Meneghello).

The fool from each of these two decks are shown are shown here; they're the last 2 fools on the page.

I still treasure my Grimaud though, because of who owned it and used it 40-ish years ago.

Mary V

 

[nisaba]

Sentimental value really adds to a deck, I find.