Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks

[Bernice]

Love it. (Mels a genius-nutcase with big, big sleeves).

So from this 'just thinking aloud' diagram:
A baton surrounded (or aspected by) Coins, could indicate that a bit of elbow-grease would bring a 'happy' result. Yes?
Whereas, a couple of Batons with a poor (or nonexistant) show of Coins might indicate that lots of labour/effort brings little or no reward?

Have I got that right - broadly speaking?

Please keep thinking.... and posting.

Bee

 

[Melanchollic]

Love it. (Mels a genius-nutcase with big, big sleeves).

So from this 'just thinking aloud' diagram:
A baton surrounded (or aspected by) Coins, could indicate that a bit of elbow-grease would bring a 'happy' result. Yes?
Whereas, a couple of Batons with a poor (or nonexistant) show of Coins might indicate that lots of labour/effort brings little or no reward?

Have I got that right - broadly speaking?

Please keep thinking.... and posting.

Bee

YES! That's a great way to put that diagram to use.

(...and yes, I love big frilly sleeves and a nice tight bodice! )

"Putting it to use", is the key... It is so easy to get distracted by "unicorn hunts" and put our time and mental energies into things that have neither practical use for card reading, or any real value in understanding the Tarot historically.


M

 

[Bernice]

"Putting it to use", is the key...

Seconded.

I see you've gone off meat pies. You're now a swashbuckling hero (in a tight bodice with frilly sleeves...). Got it! Errol Flynn with a dash of James Bond. Yes?

Joking aside, this is a cohesive and useable 'system'. Even for non-mathmaticians like me. It has two winning ingredients; 'structure', which I like, and freedom of interpretation - relative to an enquiry. The astrological approach. (YAY!)

Keep fishing up those sleeves Mel. Much appreciated.

Bee

 

[frelkins]

Since Moonbow is splitting this thread with the Mel-style going to a new "Astrological Methods of reading the pips," I will continue with the original theme more in this post:

I have a beautiful Mitelli, 62 cards, with pips Ace, and then 6-10. So Mel, using a geomantic or Pythagorean etc. historically appropriate system, what trick will you pull from your puffy sleeves to help me with my Mitelli minors?

This is technically I guess not a TdM deck, but a Bolognese one -- still, I don't think we can duck out on that as an Excuse (!) [pun intended]. Everyone else, pile on too.

 

[Moonbow]

Virtus Ardua

Courage against difficulties

or

Strength in challenges

(I'm sure a latin translator could do a better job than google?)

Since frelkins made me get the Mitelli deck out (and well overdue too), I noticed the Ace of Batons has a ribbon wrapped around it saying this.

Perhaps a meaning for the Ace?

 

[Melanchollic]

Hi frelkins,

I'd do away with specific meanings altogether.

Maybe just use the general suit meaning with a scale from the bad side of it to the good side of it.


Negative..............................................................................Positive
Attributes...........................................................................Attributes

....1.......6........7........8........9.......10.......V........Kn........Q.........K......



Just a thought...


M

 

[frelkins]

oooh great idea Mel. And Moonbow, yes the one says Courage in the Face of Danger and the Ace Sword has a ribbon that asks Who Guards the Guardians?

The Mitelli is a great deck. That's it, my next reading will be a Mel-style with the Mitelli.

 

[kwaw]

Hi again Mel,

I thought you were assessing the suits the same as the old cartomantic way.
I found this in an old post (apologies to the poster - I know your name but cannot recall it at the moment). Visual diagram for Pip strengths:


HIGH – STRONG
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♥ ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ ♦
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♥♥ ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ ♦♦
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♥♥♥ ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ ♦♦♦
♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♥♥♥♥ ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ ♦♦♦♦
♣♣♣♣♣♣♥♥♥♥♥ ♠♠♠♠♠♠ ♦♦♦♦♦
♣♣♣♣♣♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♠♠♠♠♠ ♦♦♦♦♦♦
♣♣♣♣♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♠♠♠♠ ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
♣♣♣♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♠♠♠ ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
♣♣♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♠♠ ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
♣♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♠ ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦
LOW– WEAK

The original post has the Hearts & Diamonds coloured red.

Bee

Here it is with swords cups batons & coins:

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Kwaw93/22x10table.mht

Screen captured for those for whom the link doesn't work:

The cosmic ordering of the spheres is listed on the left. Just as with the ascending and descending order of suits, the cosmic ordering of the spheres are numbered in inner and outer order, for example, Saturn is the 8th sphere from Earth, 3rd from the Primum Mobile.

The spheres of the tree of life are listed on the right. Just as with the ascending and descending order of suits, the spheres of the tree of life are numbered in ascending and descending; that is Malkuth for example is 10th descending or 1st ascending, Yesod is 9th descending, 2nd ascending.

Thus we may attribute the pips to the cosmic spheres and tree of life as follows:

Primum mobile - 10 of Swords/Batons ; Ace of Cups/Coins - Keter
Fixed stars - 9 Swords/Satons ; 2 Cups/Coins - Chokmah
Saturn - 8 Swords/Batons ; 3 Cups/Coins - Binah
Jupiter - 7 Swords/Batons ; 4 Cups/Coins - Chesed
Mars - 6 Swords/Batons ; 5 Cups/Coins - Geburah
Sun - 5 Swords/Batons ; 6 Cups/Coins - Tifaret
Venus - 4 Swords/Batons ; 7 Cups/Coins - Netzach
Mercury - 3 Swords/Batons ; 8 Cups/Coins - Hod
Moon - 2 Swords/Batons ; 9 Cups/Coins - Yesod
Earth - Ace Swords/BAtons ; 10 Cups/Coins - Malkuth

This is shown in the 22x10 table by the 10 rows.

As there are 22 columns we may also head each by one of the 22 atout. This you can vary to your own preference for position of fool, justice and strength and order of suits. In my example I have placed fool at the beginning, justice/strength as 8/11; the suits are in order swords cups batons and coins on the basis of swords and cups being opposites, worst~best, thesis ~ antithesis, father ~ mother; batons/coins as synthesis, children, son - daughter. So in the example reading the columns;

Fool - 10 Swords
Bateleur - 9 Swords/Ace Hearts, etc.

 

[Bernice]

Green Grow the Rushes Oh!

More than a year has gone by and during that time I have tinkered with other ways of reading the marseilles pips. But I have to say that my favourite so far is Mel's 'system'. But I during my tinkering I resurrected and began to research a completly un-tarot idea that still has appeal for me.

Long ago with playing cards I considered nursery rhymes, ditties & folk songs as a possible basis for the Ace-to-ten pip meanings. One song in particular kept threading through my thoughts, and now I've finally bothered to search the web for more information, and the more I discover the more ideal it seems. Some numbers are enigmatic and some are plainly understandable. But all of the numbers can be interpreted in several ways - which is great for personal preferences. I'm having success with it.

So here it is - it appears to contain christian, jewish, pagan & astronomical elements. Take your pick! It's also easy to remember.
There are several versions of it where some words (or lines) are different, so taking into account the times and places of these differences there must surely be some version that may appeal to all (...or some...).

~~~ Green Grow the Rushes Oh! ~~~
(A quickie reminder. Originally said to be sung at christmas-time)

1) Singer: "I'll sing you one song." ........All: "Green grow the rushes -oh!"
People: "What is your one song?"..... All: "Green grow the rushes -oh!"
Singer: "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be so"

2) Singer: "I'll sing you two songs." ........All: "Green grow the rushes -oh!"
People: "What are your two songs?.....All: "Green grow the rushes -oh!"
Singer: "Two, two the lillywhite boys dressed up all in green ho-ho!"
All: ..."One is one and all alone and evermore shall be so"
and so on.......

It's so familiar that I'm just giving the version I know, from the 12 counting down to one... and yes, I know there are only 10 pips in a deck

Twelve for the twelve Apostles
Eleven for the Eleven that went to Heaven
Ten for the ten Commandments
Nine for the nine Bright Shiners
Eight for the April Rainers
Seven for the Seven Stars in the sky
Six for the six Proud Walkers
Five for the Symbols at your Door (or cymbals?)
Four for the Gospel makers
Three, three, The Rivals (or, arrivals?)
Two, two. the lily-white boys dressed up all in green ho-ho!
One is one and all alone and evermore shall be so
..................................

In the late 1950s this used to be sung in pubs in the East End of London with much gusto. The words of the second 'song' (the two lilly-white boys) were somewhat different, accompanied by table banging, floor stamping and hand gestures. And a good time was had by all. A version was also known in Elizabethan times in England.

There are a number of sites that have information about the lines and their possible 'original' meanings. Here's a few:

Wiki-link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Grow_the_Rushes,_O

Word variation discussion.
http://www.folkinfo.org/forum/topic.php?topicid=405&pagenum=1&reverse=true

Scroll down to,"Green Grow the Rushes Ho"
http://www.messybeast.com/dragonqueen/12-xmas.htm



Bee

 

[kwaw]

Long ago with playing cards I considered nursery rhymes, ditties & folk songs as a possible basis for the Ace-to-ten pip meanings.

That's one of the methods I used when I first began to read playing cards when I was a kid.