"Killing the Thoth Deck" -Mary Greer

[Aeon418]

Another question - Is Thelema for everyone?

Yes, but not necessarily the exact form articulated by Crowley. The system that Crowley developed and the symbolic cosmology built around it is one particular vehicle of expression for Thelema to manifest through. Don't confuse the message with the messenger.

Will the millions who have bought and will buy the deck all aspire to Thelemic or even esoteric masterhood?

Unlikely. But a few might be prompted to dig deeper. Why?
Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Should they?

Very strange question with a simple answer. Do what thou wilt. (Not want. )

What book would you suggest to one of the, perhaps, hundreds of thousands who are definitely going to buy and use the Thoth deck but are temperamentally not suited to esotericism (much less Thelema)?

Any one of the Tarot 101 books that seem to endlessly flood the market will do. Extract the bland generic card meanings. Shoe horn them onto the Thoth. And pretend you're actually reading the deck. Bingo!

It begs the question though, if you're going to treat Tarot in such a generic fashion and insist that individual decks don't have their own unique characteristics and qualities, why bother with any one particular deck? Any old pack of cards will do the same job, right?

 

[Sophie]

Divination is not studying, divination is not intellectual understanding; it uses whatever it encounters as a jumping-off point for a sort of controlled intuitive revelry. It doesn't matter if the symbol means or is meant to mean the complete opposite of what the diviner feels it means - all that matters is the moment of the divination and that the question is answered.

But to get to that point of complete egoless divination requires years of practice and work. Ask the sangomas, the Taoist YiJing readers, the astrologers, the Ifa diviners. All of these, eventually, get to a points where it is just them and the other and the breath of spirit. But to get there... oh, it's a long hard arduous road.

Do you know what an apprentice sangoma has to undergo?!

 

[Scion]

Scion, I'd say that a reading is not an explanation of the cards, and sometimes it is barely even a reaction to the pictures on them - it is a relationship between two people, or, sometimes, two parts of yourself (if you can get there).

Divination is not studying, divination is not intellectual understanding; it uses whatever it encounters as a jumping-off point for a sort of controlled intuitive revelry. It doesn't matter if the symbol means or is meant to mean the complete opposite of what the diviner feels it means - all that matters is the moment of the divination and that the question is answered.

P.S. writing a book that tries to explain the symbols, on the other hand, does indeed require some knowledge and study to be taken seriously.

I hear you... but I don't equate reading with Divination. There are overlaps, but I think far more people read the cards than Divine with them. And the very people who are trying to use the Thoth and "avoid" Thelema are Readers NOT Diviners. Know what I mean?

And while reading is a very slow way to put together the puzzle, it could theoretically be done in a few hundred lifetimes. And if any possible intuitive reverie is excited by contemplation of the Thoth images, then the impact must be Crowley's. It's a jungle gym for the intuition and it is his jungle gym.

So I take your point, but I'd still say that people are studying Thelema when they even flick through the Thoth. Feebly, in all likelihood, but study nonetheless. The moment their eyes rest on it, the moment they see even a single symbol they are tugging at one of the threads in Crowley's system. That's all I was saying: no amount of protestation or self-helped Oprah-empowering groupthink scratch-n-sniff pseudo-guides can erase Crowley from his deck... not with steel wool and boric acid.

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

But to get to that point of complete egoless divination requires years of practice and work. Ask the sangomas, the Taoist YiJing readers, the astrologers, the Ifa diviners. All of these, eventually, get to a points where it is just them and the other and the breath of spirit. But to get there... oh, it's a long hard arduous road.

Do you know what an apprentice sangoma has to undergo?!

Sorry, I don't know that. I know healers with a gift - healing is also a form of divination - I know healers that studied for up to 12 years - maybe they are still studying - with a teacher. They have a calling, but not so much of the gift.

Don't forget the degree to which these are institutionalized practices, with guardians at the gates who must be paid, and the path leading to a degree with institutional authority that is recognized and rewarded in society. All of this adds to the arduousness of the path.

That is NOT to say that (I am arguing) no study is needed. The innocence of the child - often used as an oracle - is lost at the onset of puberty. Sometimes even by 10. Once you've entered the maze of adulthood, you need to get out, and only study and submitting to a teacher will help. And in a culture that recognizes diviners and healers, the only way to gain a living - or a reputation - by your skill is to come from a recognized school.

Our secular society doesn't officially recognize diviners, or healers that haven't gone to medical school, so we find more often those who have recognized their own gifts from an early age and have somehow self-perfected them, or trained under someone in a parallel, not-officially-sanctioned school.

 

[Debra]

If in fact someone doesn't want to study Thelema or the Golden Dawn then WHY are they using objects created for the express purpose of communicating those worldviews?!

Because these objects appeal to them for reasons perhaps unrecognized by the originators or you.

Because they "get it" without all the stuff that committed practictioners think necessary for getting it.

Because objects can take on a life of their own or be "repurposed" to good effect.

Because beauty has its own language.

Because they are as much creators as students, acolytes, users or consumers and these objects facilitate their creativity.

Because they want to, for their own reasons, and they are free.

 

[Teheuti]

Whatever the Crocodile and Lotus in this card may mean to anyone else, the the Crocodile and Lotus in this Fool are CROWLEY'S Crocodile and Lotus in Crowley's Fool: Crowley chose them as symbols, and with Harris painting he placed them in context; he dictated their position, color, size, aspect, composition exactly as the are because he was expressing that worldview as coherently as possible.

I agree completely with this in terms of "studying" the Thoth deck in order to learn everything you can about it. But, what about those people who bought the deck and want to use it simply for personal readings to give insight into their own issues, not as a reflection of the Creator (whether Crowley or the Highest)? Especially if they are not interested in Crowley, Thelema or the GD?

An artist might want a viewer to study everything the artist studied and understand the artist's intent - but once the work is made public, much less sold, the public are free to view it in any way they want.

In making the deck public, rather than keeping it as a private study tool within the OTO, Crowley gave up the perogrative to "require" anything.

This deck is not a random collision of symbols anymore than a book is a random collision of the Alphabet ground out by infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters.

This is my point exactly. A book is viewed and interpreted according to the reader. Some may choose to track down everything the author might have intended by comparing other works and sources (as with Shakespeare), but even Shakespeare is turned into modern TV drama without all the sources and symbolism being understood.

Using the Thoth is a study of Thelema, in the same way that singing Mozart is a way of studying Mozart. . . Is there a way to pay attention to something and NOT study it?

Someone may choose to simply enjoy listening to Mozart without learning anything about him or the music. Likewise, someone may want to simply read the tarot using the Thoth deck with only some basic direction for its use. I agree that they will not truly understand it. Whether that's right or not for them is an irrelevant opinion on our part.

Even with the most glancing attention, the very stones and decor are designed to convety a particular understanding of the universe. Those ideas are communicated.

Then shouldn't that be enough?

stupid asssertions like "Set is the Egyptian Satan" or "Hades is the Greek name for Hell."

But, no matter how much we study the Egyptian Set we will never know what it actually meant to the people who originally worshiped at a particular temple—even if we managed to learn much about how he was worshiped at a different temple because the truly old Egyptian gods were not uniform.

Catholicism is named so because it was "catholic" that is to say, orthodox.

Actually, lowercase "catholic" means universal—from "on the whole" or "in general"—whether or not it is orthodox.

"If you are using the Crowley-Harris Thoth then you are living inside Crowley's head, looking at the Universe through his eyes... however shallow or slight a grasp you may cultivate of that connection.

I don't agree with this, but that's only my opinion. The more I study the sources for the deck, the more I will be approaching this, but "living inside Crowley's head"—I think not.

BTW, is there nothing of Frieda Harris in it?

Even Crowley, egomaniac that he was, inisted on study of his esoteric and intellectual forebears.

And how much did Crowley study the 15th century sources of the tarot and Medieval/early Renaissance philosophy? Shouldn't that be everyone's first place to go when studying the Thoth Tarot deck? To Dante and Petrarch and the Dukes of Milan?

And this brings me back to one of my biggest questions...

If in fact someone doesn't want to study Thelema or the Golden Dawn then WHY are they using objects created for the express purpose of communicating those worldviews?!

You can ask this question all you want, but, the reality is that people do!

This seems to be all about "should," "should," "should"—because there is only one right way and all others should be condemned as heresy. Plenty of people think this way. But there are others who welcome heresy and use tarot deck in a multitude of ways that others will object to. I remember how horrified and condemning people on a list were when I mentioned I had cut the borders off my Thoth deck back in the '70s. Now it seems commonplace.

Should we listen to those gamesters who believe that fortune-telling should have nothing to do with tarot? That it is wrong for anyone to use a tarot deck for anything other than playing some version of tarocchi? Or historians who think that only the original Renaissance understanding of the tarot allegories is the "correct" meaning of the cards (and should not be applied to divination since there is no indication that that was in the mind of tarot's creator)?

The Thoth deck is Crowley's adaptation of an earlier creation (the 15th century decks adapted into the Marseille-styling), without his feeling the need to study the actual original intent—but, rather, he turned to a made-up interpretation and explanation (Kenneth Mackenzie's fantasies about the deck to which Westcott and Mathers added their own) as his basis.

BTW, I think the GD, RWS, and Thoth decks and system(s) are brilliant and that it is well-worth studying the sources. But, not for everyone.

 

[Teheuti]

Because these objects appeal to them for reasons perhaps unrecognized by the originators or you.

Because they "get it" without all the stuff that committed practictioners think necessary for getting it.

Because objects can take on a life of their own or be "repurposed" to good effect.

Because beauty has its own language.

Because they are as much creators as students, acolytes, users or consumers and these objects facilitate their creativity.

Because they want to, for their own reasons, and they are free.

Debra - Love this list. Thank you. It cuts through all my silly attempt at arguing something and says it clearer than I could have done.

 

[Sophie]

Because these objects appeal to them for reasons perhaps unrecognized by the originators or you.

Because they "get it" without all the stuff that committed practictioners think necessary for getting it.

Because objects can take on a life of their own or be "repurposed" to good effect.

Because beauty has its own language.

Because they are as much creators as students, acolytes, users or consumers and these objects facilitate their creativity.

Because they want to, for their own reasons, and they are free.

All that is true. We can read with matchsticks, of course, but they aren't nearly as rich and beautiful as the Thoth tarot.

The caveat to that is that if you want to study the Thoth - as opposed to use it as lovely and subjectively meaningful random images - then some scholarly steps are necessary. It's the difference, I would suggest, between natural mysticism and theology. Some people fall on one or other side of the fence, and some are fortunate enough not to have a fence, and can bridge both. And even if you study, you don't have to become a Thelemite or any sort of magickal practitioner. But it will illuminate the cards from the inside.

(and it's still not a reason to recommend a bad book).

I know healers that studied for up to 12 years - maybe they are still studying - with a teacher. They have a calling, but not so much of the gift.

Don't forget the degree to which these are institutionalized practices, with guardians at the gates who must be paid, and the path leading to a degree with institutional authority that is recognized and rewarded in society. All of this adds to the arduousness of the path.

That is NOT to say that (I am arguing) no study is needed. The innocence of the child - often used as an oracle - is lost at the onset of puberty. Sometimes even by 10. Once you've entered the maze of adulthood, you need to get out, and only study and submitting to a teacher will help. And in a culture that recognizes diviners and healers, the only way to gain a living - or a reputation - by your skill is to come from a recognized school.

Our secular society doesn't officially recognize diviners, or healers that haven't gone to medical school, so we find more often those who have recognized their own gifts from an early age and have somehow self-perfected them, or trained under someone in a parallel, not-officially-sanctioned school.

Ross, you're absolutely right about all that. Maybe we're at cross-purposes: I am not just talking of studying: divination involves the whole person, and involves some sort of break and breakthrough. When I asked - do you know what apprentice sangomas have to go through? I don't mean all the lists of plants and all the meanings of bone configurations they have to learn (which of course, they do have to learn): I mean an intense spiritual discipline and above all, the 'thwaka' - that is, the breakdown of the personality (through initiation, illness, holy madness, and often all three), which allows for the diviner to reach sufficient spiritual mastery that s/he can remove the ego from the act of divining.

Very few tarot readers reach that, but I would guess that those who do have either lived through an intense breakdown and reconstruction process, or have done so through magickal initiation of some sort. I think that is what the Thoth is really about. It's not necessary to go through a state- or organisational-prescribed curriculum: but it is necessary to engage fully with the material, with the self, and with the divine (since we are talking of divination).

Which doesn't mean those not ready to reach that edge and go over it can't use the Thoth of course... nor does it mean that if you read assiduously the collected works of Frater Perdurabo and ape all his workings, you'll necessarily get there either

 

[Sophie]

I also want to add - I feel pretty strongly about this for a specific reason: in French-, German- and Spanish-speaking countries, the Thoth deck is very popular: but it is often packaged or recommended with the Gerd Ziegler's appalling Mirror of the Soul. At the same time, the Book of Thoth is not that easily available, and not that commonly recommended.

That's just crap.

Sell the deck by all means, let people lose themselves in the beauty of the images. Some - maybe many - of those will find their way to the writings of Crowley eventually. But for pity's sake, don't push Gerd Ziegler on them!

 

[Aeon418]

Sell the deck by all means, let people lose themselves in the beauty of the images. Some - maybe many - of those will find their way to the writings of Crowley eventually. But for pity's sake, don't push Gerd Ziegler on them!

It could be a blessing in disguise. The first virtue that needs cultivation on the path is discrimination. Sometimes mistaking a charlatan for a teacher can be a valuable lesson in the long run. But if you don't learn the lesson, tant pis!.