Marseille Suit Sequence - 1st-2nd-3rd-4th

Bernice

I've tried a search for this - must be using the wrong search-term(s). Finally got worn out with browsing.

Currently I've come across two 'orders' of the suits. (The posters give their reasons):

Cups - Coins - Batons - Epees.......see Melancholics posts
Coins - Epees - Batons - Cups.......see Eugims posts

I feel that any sequence arrangement of the suits should accord with the 'history' of these cards, in-so-far as we are aware of it.

If anyone else uses a Suit Order please would you consider shareing it, along with a (brief) explanation? It would be much appreciated.

Bee :)
 

Bernice

Perhaps I should explain a bit more.
As far as I know, the earliest cards were the Mumluk deck. They had four 'suits'. I think, correct me if I'm wrong. Very likely having their origins with Chinese money cards.

After the cards entered Italy & Spain, they were subject to modification. Then a little later, extra cards were added to the deck = trifioni.

Now... the Mumluk deck 'appears' to accord with a social structure. So too, do the pips & courts of the early european decks.

Other sources hint that the cards originally had either Three Suits, or Five Suits. It would be nice to be able to clear this up - historically speaking. It would also provide some insight as to a Suit Sequence.

Bee

It that better, my Viking friend? :)
 

Kircher Tree

Bernice:
F.Y.I.

For many years I stuck to one of the "standard" sequences. The most standard seems to Wands=fire, Cups=water, Swords=air, Coins=earth. This one has the wind "forming" the water in the creation sequence. There is also an almost standard sequence that is Wands, Swords, Cups, Coins. Which has the water becoming a form out of the air.

A few years ago, I became interested in the sequence of Joseph Maxwell, which is Swords=fire, Cups=water, Coins=air, Wands=earth. It made a lot of sense to me that Wands had to do with the fertility and life of the earth, but it still didn't seem right with the swords and coins.

Lately I have been experimenting with Coins = Fire/Gold/impulse, Cups = creation/water/salt, Swords = formation/air/mercury, Wands = Earth/life/sulphur.

So far the experimentation looks very favorable, but I will let you know in a few months.
 

Bernice

Ah! Kircher Tree :)

As far as I know, the Suits were not originally equated with Elements. So that any 'suit order' that is derived from elemental considerations is of a later time.

It's the earliest 'order' of the suits I'm trying to discover.

Bee

Glad you came in!
I had half-a-system using Salt! (assigned it to Cups). But then then the Alchemy got me all tied up.... :)

We posted at the same time - so I've edited this.
 

Major Tom

The suit order I like and that I got from jmd is alphabetical in French.

Atouts
Batons
Coupes
Deniers
Epees

So in English:

Trumps
Batons
Cups
Coins
Swords
 

Bernice

Cheers Major Tom,

So now we have:

Cups - Coins - Batons - Epees.......see Melancholics posts
Coins - Epees - Batons - Cups.......see Eugims posts
Batons - Cups - Coins - Swords......from jmd, via Major Tom. Is there a post for jmds' reasons?

Bee

We'll get there.... :)

Bee
 

Moonbow

I use the same as Tom and jmd as well, although I sometimes put the Trumps (Atouts) last depending on what I am studying at the time.
 

Bernice

Thank you Major Tom for that link. Looks like a really interesting discussion re. the Suit sequences :)

An initial 'browse' does'nt convince me that the order is alphabetic, but the info. is great! I'll be back after reading the whole thread. Thank you.

Bee

So: Two out of four use the alphabet order (jdm). Cheers Moonbow.
Just keeping a check.... :)
 

Kircher Tree

I agree we should use the French names on the Marsille, but historically they came later than the Italians and the Moors, so I don't see how you can justify the suit order according to the French spellings.

Eugim's favorite writer, Jodo, derives the suit order from the 4 figures on the corners of El Mudo XXI. He also finds some other "visual" evidence of the sequence. Some of it seems feasible, for instance the Denier in the 10th Coupe. Other times it is menos convincentes, for instance, he thinks he sees the point of the crossed swords from 10 Epees in the Ace Coupe. Well, maybe...

Starting from the top right of Le Monde and going counter-clockwise Jodo comes up with the sequence:

Epees - Coupes - Deniers - Batons ...... Jodo, Maxwell

This sequence is the same as Joseph Maxwell.

I am surprised that Maxwell gets ignored here. He had some interesting things to say, that are, I think, more traditional than Paul Marteau.

Eugim: You do not need to thank me for mentioning su muy buen amigo Jodo.
I knew you would be pleased.
 
Marseilles Seekers Thread (Fifth Exercise) One.