Marseilles - Valet de Deniers (Page of Coins)

[shaveling]

When I look at the courts as a group, I lay them out with the King to the left (from the reader's point of view) and the other cards left to right, by rank: Kg,Q, Kt, Vt. I use that order because I can see patterns there, and I can't if I lay them out in the opposite direction.

The patterns I see are these: The Swords and Cups I call the "conventional" courts. The figures on the other cards are all turned towards the King, as I imagine happens in situations when real monarchs are in the room.

The other two suits are "unconventional." In the Batons, everybody looks, not at the King, but in the direction the King faces, loking at whatever he's looking at. They all share a coommon focus, a common goal or ideal. That seems right for the way I think of Batons generally.

The Deniers are perhaps the most interesting. That court isn't all focused on the King, or on a shared vision. They're broken up into pairs, and they're all working. The King and the Queen are discussing the available resources. And the Knight and Valet form a pair. I see the Valet as tossing the coins to the Knight, to use for whatever business he is about. So I see the coin in the air on the Knight's card as having been tossed to him by his assistant, the Valet. The Valet, on his own card, I see as tossing yet another coin to the Knight, taken from the stack on the ground at his feet. That makes the coin on the ground the last remaining coin in the current stack.

In the Conver and the Burdel (the decks I tend to go with), the Valet looks toward the Knight. In the Noblet he's looking in the other direction. But he's still tossing the coin back to the Knight.

 

[Splungeman]

As for the knight, I see the coin in the air as a vision or motivation. It is that which he seeks and strives for that compels him onward. Man I love the TdM...

 

[eugim]

Hello Gentlemen....
1-Okay...
2The point is why you both here see as you see ....
3-What Cards Sequence Order do you suggest thus to us ?

eugim

 

[Moonbow]

Some nice thoughts on the Valet de Deniers Splungeman, I've said similar things to this in the 'How May They Be Read' threads.

He looks intently at the coin he is holding in most Marseilles decks but in the Noblet he looks away from it and that can give a completely different interpretation for reading. He doesn't notice the coin on the ground, so this could be seen as someone who is not observant, missing the point.

Valets, being in service to the King and/or Queen wouldn't have much, if any, property of their own. Perhaps this is why he looks away, its not his money he is property himself.

 

[Paul]

I like the TdM's capacity for à la carte reading; that is, due to its iconicity, it seems more conducive to combining standard elements--that occur across cards-- as signifiers of a final meaning as they occur on one card.

I know that the "Valet," per se, signifies something, and the Denier signifies something, and the context of the question signifies something, and then the actual card image may suggest something.

So ordering all of these things from the menu, I view the Valet's or Pages as signifying attention to details, errands, communications, and attending to underpinning matters (in this case having to do with the genre of Deniers). Valets or Pages are the executive assistants, for example. S/he is the stage hand, while the actors (King and Queen) attend to their Play (Knight).

We could take Deniers to signify material matters.

Since we don't have a quesion here to provide context, I would stop there.

So, he could be number crunching, making saving deposits, buying office supplies, doing an Excel spreadsheet; I would like to see at what or to whom he is gazing.

 

[eugim]

iconicity...
Tres jolie !!! -But what is it my friend ?

1-DENIERS: The only suit in plural and unnumbered
2-VALET: The only honour figure stopped on the ground
A son of ROY and REYNE ?
He don t already noticed the DENIERS buried or not closely or down his feet as CAVALIER who follows it (Yes,the Sun btw... )
3-Per se...
Well nothing on Tarot my friend I think ...
So how you arrived that DENIERS are material or have material meaning ?
A card numbered is because its has a "place" related to others.
But DENIERS aren t numbered.
So just because and for me of course,are the most Spiritual suit of all.
The silly and clumsy Occultism of 19 french century saw that first (Eteilla sons)

eugim

 

[Paul]

Iconicity:

My friend Enrique Enriques defined it well in this article:
http://www.tarot-authentique.com/tarot-divination/excellence-marseilles-tarot.html

As far as Deniers as Money: I’m using a late Medieval Four Estates of Life model.

Clergy – Les Coupes, responsible for ceremonies, births, marriages, deaths, religion, medicine, hospitals
Nobility – Les É’pées, responsible for Statecraft, noblesse d’épée and noblesse de robe, government, enforcement
Peasants– Les Bâtons, responsible for labor, the bourgeoisie
Merchants – Les Deniers, responsible for commerce, capital, trade

There were typically Three Estates; my understanding is that a Fourth Estate rose due to mercantilism, which created a prominent circulation of capital (moneys, gold, etc.) via currency. (Much later on, the Fourth Estate was the free press.)

So, Les Deniers represent to me matters related to this Estate.

Now, whether to assign each group to Water, Fire, Earth, or Air is the subject of much debate. But, the elements are thus assigned to each category.

It’s off subject—some have said that Health Matters are placed with Earth/Deniers. But, I like the idea of them being placed with the Clergy class, who were responsible for hospitals, healing, medicine. So, the Valet de Deniers is the Valet of Merchants.

 

[eugim]

Paul...
I respected Enrique Enriquez too much even if I m agree or not with him.
There he show the two DE DENIERS
Its marvellous how suggest the eight card that far next comes.
The eight the number which link the microcosmos with the Macrocosmos.
As the earlier baptismal fonts that have an eight pattern...
The essence of the world Religion (re-ligare) the meet between human being and God (As in the LE MONDE card )

eugim

 

[Bernice]

Something interesting re, the Page/Valet of Coins:

http://supertarot.co.uk/meaning/papus.htm

This is not marseille, it's pre-Waite and Crowley (Where they got much of their info. from). The Page/Princess/Valet is singled out. Here's a small quote from the site:

The Princess of Pentacles is particularly important in the Book of Thoth, as She is 'on the brink of transformation', a key phrase that echoes a common thread running through Tarot of the Bohemians.

Bee