Meaning of the Empress

[memries]

How about Queen Elizabeth I... she was really an Empress anyway of lands they had conquered and lands they would take like India. She was not fertile and had life and death powers, which she used quite peremptorily. Not just sure of the date of when she assumed the throne. I think it was in the 1500's as I don't think Henry VIII lived to be very old.

Also how about the Medici family in Europe, they went around poisoning each other and others. Not sure of that date either. So much for being a history buff.

 

[Cinammon Sue]

I see nothing wrong with dragging some of the Tarot forward also, while retaining some of the distionctions and concepts.

Assuming that we are indeed moving forward.

 

[Ayumi]

What would you imagine the meaning of the Empress card might have been to a viewer in the 15th century?

While some 'moderns' may view The Empress as Mat Syra Zemlya (Mother Earth), the educated viewer in the 15th century would most certainly have seen her as Lunar. The then common sciences of astrology, and alchemy both correspond Queens/Empresses to Lunar symbolism. Paired with the Emperor, (the male/solar) we have a classic example of astrological/alchemical imagery, representing the male/female dichotomy, and perhaps some deeper Hermetic ideas.

This is a good example of why Tarot should not be 'dragged forward' indiscriminately. Without a true understanding of the 'root' of something, we are just laying misconception on top of misconception, until the thing's original meaning and power has been lost to us forever.

Ayumi

 

[le pendu]

The then common sciences of astrology, and alchemy both correspond Queens/Empresses to Lunar symbolism. Paired with the Emperor, (the male/solar) we have a classic example of astrological/alchemical imagery, representing the male/female dichotomy, and perhaps some deeper Hermetic ideas.

So may I ask, what would you assign the meaning of the Empress card? I can understand the pairing aspect clearly enough.. but how does she stand on her own? When turning the card, how might it be read?

PS Ayumi, it's not that I want to put you on the spot as much as I suspect by other of your posts that we view many aspects of the tarot from a similar viewpoint, and I am extremely curious how you see this. best.

 

[le pendu]

At her best, Grace Kelly. At her worst, Paris Hilton.

Brilliant! How perfect is that?

 

[Ayumi]

So may I ask, what would you assign the meaning of the Empress card? I can understand the pairing aspect clearly enough.. but how does she stand on her own? When turning the card, how might it be read?

PS Ayumi, it's not that I want to put you on the spot as much as I suspect by other of your posts that we view many aspects of the tarot from a similar viewpoint, and I am extremely curious how you see this. best.

I don't mind if you put me on the spot. It keeps me on my toes.

To address your question:

This really depends a lot on the question, who is asking, if the card is well placed, say sitting comfy next to VI, or poorly placed, next to XIII.

I can say I'd never really interpret this card as authority, I'd save that for the Emperor. This is from my background in Astrology, where the Queen is ruled by the Moon, only as the wife of the King, not if ruling in her own right, when she would be the Sun.

Melanchollic's Grace Kelly/Paris Hilton comment is pretty close to my view as well.

Obviously she can symbolize wives, girlfriends, daughters, mothers, anything feminine, pregnancy, menstruation, female disorders. There is some over-lap with Trumps II, XVII, and XVIII, all being feminine (either Lunar, or Venusian)

I interpret her as a generally positive indicator, but that might quickly change on a wimp. She is the younger, more naive side of feminine energy, compared to La Papess, who is older and wiser.

Taking it slightly into the less obvious, borrowing from Lilly and others:

When well placed, she could symbolize things that are liquid or associated with liquid, soft things, things of little flavor or substance, white things, new things, trends, fads, novelty, the popular opinion, compassion, accommodation, Mondays, the breasts, womb, belly, intestines.

When poorly placed she could represent lost objects, intoxicants, lack of courage, changeability, fickleness, moodiness, depression, miss placed sympathy, being too compassionate (bring home ALL the stray animals), superficial worldliness, pretensions, lack of a firm position, the status quo, materialism, and inconsistency (classic Moon association).

Yes, some of this could also be said of Trump XVIII, The Moon itself. And I do see them as somewhat interchangeable. They differ in that she is mundane and the moon is celestial. She is the way the Lunar/feminine energy actually manifest itself in the mundane world.

A lot of people prefer to see La Papess as Lunar, and The Empress as Venus. This works fine if the two cards are seen individually. But when you see them as part of a system including their partners the Pope and Emperor, La Papess works better as Venus, and the Empress as the Moon, in my experience.

That's about as much as I can say without a specific question to address. Feel free to throw one at me.

Ayumi

 

[Melanchollic]

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[kwaw]

One can associate both venus urania and venus natura as representing the celestial virgin and terrestrial whore to the popesse; however among the Italian humanists influenced by neoplatonism venus-natura takes on the aspect of venus-humanitas so that one could also take popesse as venus urania and empress as venus-natura / humanitas. In the iconography built up around such figures as Queen Elizabeth I by English neoplatonic humanists for example it can be shown in art and literature of the time how she encompasses both lunar and venusian qualities; portrayed as Cynthia or Diana, but also as Venus-Virgo, Venus-Pudenta and Venus-Humanitas. Both popesse and empress could incorporate lunar and venusian qualities dependent upon relationships between particular cards that one wishes to make. Astrological symbolism was ubiquitous for the period but our understanding of it should not be limited by its technical representation in books of horary astrology but its representation in popular art, literature, plays and religious and political polemics; and also among the humanists for which astrological symbolism plays the role of an ancient lingua franca, a language of astrological symbolism not always or even primarily to be construed as equivalent with the language of astrological practitioners of the same or post reformation period.

Kwaw

 

[Ayumi]

Good points Kwaw. And as a general rule I have to agree. But there are times when doing a reading for a client, when a reader needs to have made some distinction, at least personally, between the two. For example, 90% of Japanese clients ask about love, or marriage, or relationships. A lot of men ask, "Should I go out with Girl #1 or with Girl #2 ?" If Girl #1 works at a ladies fashion outlet, a Venusian job, and if Girl #2 works at a bar, a typical lunar job, I can use this to answer the clients question. In fact, this was an actual question I had last year. In an astrological spread, Le Toille (Venus) was in the 7th House (partnership) and represented Girl #1. L' Imperatrice (moon) was in the 5th house (pleasure) and represented Girl #2. The 5th was in Aries, a cardinal sign which shows quick change. The 7th was in Gemini, mutable, a little more long term. I told the man that a relationship with Girl #2, the bargirl, would be a lot of 'fun' but rather short lived. A relationship with Girl #1, could maybe be long term. The choice was his. Without having made a clear distinction between which is Lunar, and which is Venusian, I would not have been able to answer the fellow. And I hate when that happens!

Fortune Telling of all types is incredibly popular in Japan, and a Fortune Teller's reputation is based on one thing only. Whether or not they "Ataru", meaning, if they predict correctly. In big cities good Fortune Tellers with good reputations who always "Ataru" make a lot of money. I am an amateur, and don't charge anyone, and just read for friends and acquaintances, but I still want to "Ataru".

Ayumi

 

[kwaw]

In addition to my comments on Venus Urania and Venus Natura I would contend that any educated person of the period, certainly of the courts and probably of the general populace too, would have been familiar with the popular literature of chivalry, either through direct reading, its performance or local annual games and festivities; among the figures of which the Empress of the Court was typically an allegorical representation of 'Virtue'.

The 'virtue' of chivalric literature was particularly associated with social graces, with eloquence, elegance, courtly love and 'the perfection of form and nature'; and connected symbolically with both Natura and with Venus.

In my opinion both the nobility and the general populace were in fact much more probably aware of such than the technical textbooks of horary astrology; and that while it may be true to say that any practitioner of horary astrology of the period, and others too, may well have associated the moon as significator of the Empress; to say that all educated people would automatically make this association exclusively and suggest any other association would be anachronistic is historically incorrect.

Kwaw