My RWS hate/hate relationship

northsea

wytchwood said:
Doing your own thing with the images as Baba has described (and done so well with her own decks if I may be so bold) while sticking to the basic meaning is a very interesting way to experiment and be creative without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The cards can still mean the same thing and be read in a similar way without using the same image to portray it.

One often-used approach I like is to retain RWS meanings for the pips while "doing your own thing" with the images. Another approach, and somewhat rarer (Tarot of Imagination), is to devise your own meanings for the complete pictorial pips. This has alot of potential, especially if it were based on some esoteric system different from the RWS.

What I do not like to see is using RWS meanings for most of the cards but then, seemingly without clue, diverging from those meanings on a few cards, such as the Secret Tarot's 10 of Wands, or confusing switches, the 7 of Wands showing a victorious figure with wreath on horseback or the 7 of Swords showing a journey across water.
 

wytchwood

I would have to agree there is no half-way house. Either stick with it or don't! I found that this was the kiss of death for the Ancestral Path for me, it's such a beautiful deck, stunning in fact, I was mesmerised by it when I looked through, but it seems to have a strange combination of 'standard' images and random diversions form the system which I just found too inconsistent and confusing. I'm sure there are plenty of readers who just don't mind and get used to it but for me it was just too patchy.
 

Cedar Wolf

I'm reviving this thread because I think some interesting questions got raised here that no one really answered much: what are the problems, structural and otherwise, with the RWS and other tarot decks, that make some of us keep searching for alternatives?

For myself, learning about tarot has been a process working from intrigue to mild enthrallment to dissatisfaction, causing me to want to create my own deck, one that I can finally read with and be content spending years getting to know. In the beginning, I suspected that I might have to draw my own version in order to really know tarot, but I didn't realize at the time that I'd have to change or rework a lot of the structure and content, too.

(By the way, I see a number of people who are bored with all the RWS clones, which I understand if the underlying structure doesn't work for you. I see them all as personal reworkings of the symbolic expression of RWS, which I would expect from people who find it useful but need to make it their own. It doesn't make me want to own or use them, but I am glad that there are so many who feel drawn to it and want to honor it with their own version.)

Some of my problems with RWS:

-Too much repetition. If you only have a vocabulary of 78 symbols (as opposed to 40,000 words or so in English), you'd think that Waite would have wanted to limit the overlap. But compare the 2 of Cups with The Lovers; the 4 of Swords with The Hermit; the 8, 9 and 10 of Swords; the 9 of Pentacles and The Empress, and more... it's not that the cards are exactly the same, but they're redundant enough to make you question why we need, say, the three different shades of suffering in the 8, 9 and 10 of Swords and not something else in keeping with the element of Air, perhaps the joy of solving a problem (I am aware that Waite probably viewed the characteristics of Air differently in his time than we do in ours, but still).

-The pip cards often tell too much of a story for me to find them really useful. Take the 6 of Swords, for instance. There's the element of a journey, and also leaving troubles behind (maybe solving them, maybe just running away from them); being guided by the ferryman, and whether or not the people in the boat are being unburdened or continuing to carry their troubles. It's just a lot of components to choose from. Many RWS clones exacerbate the problem by creating and telling even more complex stories for the characters in the cards. Some people are perfectly happy choosing one or two elements in the card to focus on; for me, I find it specifying too much. Aside from this, the minor arcana cards, on the whole, aren't widespread symbols that are interpretable in many ways, in opposition to many of the Major Arcana, such as The Star, Moon, Sun, Lovers, Emperor, Hermit, Death, and so on.

In general, I haven't investigated other traditional tarot systems (Thoth, Tarot de Marseilles) because there are other problems they share in common:

-Being rooted in the Medieval/modern Christian mindset. Most of the archetypal content of the tarot has been heavily filtered through Christian ideas about the world; some of these are subtle (such as the imperialist Empress somehow being the symbol of the natural world, and the natural world being very low down in the progression of the trumps), and some of these are blatant, such as The Devil. There is useful symbolic content behind both of these cards and others, but the Christian spin is not one I care to engage.

-Some of the cards in the Major Arcana aren't actually symbols (such as the cardinal virtues of Strength, Justice and Temperance): they are the objects of symbols. But Strength doesn't much stand for anything but strength, even if there are many different kinds and expressions of strength. Crowley just added to this in the Thoth deck with Lust and Art. Also, some of the symbols are simply poor for what they are supposed to represent, such as the aforementioned Empress, or the Tower: the meanings assigned to them aren't what anyone (in this age, a hundred years ago, or a thousand years ago in Europe, much less anywhere else in the world) would think beforehand, given what we know in our everyday world of empresses and towers (even the story of the Tower of Babel is about retribution for hubris, and not really about general radical change).

-And, of course, they're generally parochial enough to make me gag.

The point here is that these are the things that don't work for me. If other people can use them well, I'm not one to complain that they "shouldn't" be used (and I can't stop anyone from using them in any case). But I'm posting this not just to sound off, but to hear what other people think about the traditions of tarot. Does anyone else have critiques of the traditional systems?
 

gregory

RiccardoLS said:
I think that what you said is absolutely true if you see Tarot *only* as a personal journey.
It is true that the act of designing a deck, of asking such questions, is part of *my* personal journey.
But I believe that designing a deck should be seen also as something not for me, but for whoever may use the Tarot. At least, I think I should see it that way.
I need not just incorporating my understanding of Tarot and my question, but I must strive to build a tool that people with a different understanding and a different path may use.
Egypt Urnash said:
So... does the system underneath the meanings matter? Or does it only matter that the system you use generates a wide variety of meanings and images, that covers most of the emotions and situations people find themselves in?

If your target audience is steeped in the existing cabbala/astrology/numerology systems, perhaps it does. If your target audience isn't, does it matter that you have a new system based on, oh, I dunno, assigning things based on modern particle physics and the arcane grammar of a programming language? (Which would be pretty awesome if you could pull it off. "The 4 of Gravity corresponds to the Charm quark, the Higgs boson, and a linked list...")

How far do you think you can bend the structure of "tarot" before it snaps and becomes something you're not comfortable calling "tarot" any more? How far away are you from the RWS when that break happens? I don't think this is something you'll ever find a consensus on. Some have it embedded deep in their minds and like it that way, some have another system deep inside, some are ready to play with lots of systems, many outside the mystic circles just have a vague impression of RWS or Thoth.

As a creator who's learnt their craft well, slavish imitation is boring. You can only tell the same story in the same manner so many times before it becomes a prison. Creation is driven (for me, at least) by an urge to create something new; sometimes from whole cloth, sometimes from building on diverse influences. If you need to leave the RWS behind, then do it and see where this takes you. Maybe you'll come back to it refreshed; maybe you'll leave it behind forever.
I want to kick this thread back into life by reminding people of these two rather stunning posts. Because - I don't like the RWS as a deck, though I do prefer illustrated pips. I would love to see new tarots that make tarot sense - oracle DON'T work for me; strange tarot decks do. I am itching for Egypt Urnash's deck to be available (it will be, soon !) as I think it MAY be what I'm looking for - OK ONE of the things I'm looking for.

But - as Ric knows, I have MAJOR issues with structure and would like to "get it" better. If I did - maybe this would all become an awful lot clearer. The RWS does have structure in a way that I can understand - somewhat. But still...
 

Wendywu

I can understand people wanting to move away from the accepted RWS standard meanings but if a deck is going to remain tarot, rather than oracle - does it actually need to stay within one of the main three systems. Or four, if we include Etteilla. I don't actually think so, any more (although once I did).

I have always been comfortable with the RWS and yet sometimes find myself longing for something different. I don't know what. I guess I think I'll know it when I see it. But what I most emphatically don't want is change for its own sake. I want any change to be the gradual evolution of one system into another thing, however loosely the child resembles the parent - or not at all, at the end of the process. I really don't like the idea of someone just banging out 78 cards with different images and meanings that don't (and I hate this word) resonate with the way we live our lives.

I'm not hugely into astrology (a lack in me, I know) and parts of the earlier conversation just whooshed straight over me. But I understand totally the yearning for an evolution.... In the time since the RWS deck was produced, the world has changed almost beyond belief and whilst it is true that our nature as people doesn't change, I do think that what is important once might no longer be, and things that our forebears wouldn't have given a second thought to are now more important in our lives. A deck that reflected this, thoughtfully and with cohesion, would be very interesting to me.
 

gregory

Yes that's it - to be able to follow how they got there. And that means they have to find their way there first ! Someone somewhere up the thread mentioned the Ironwing as a tarot for the 21st century - I know you "get" it - but that is one I don't get at all - and I feel sure Lorena knew where she was going, I am just lost on the way. So it needs to be both creator and end user that can see the map....
 

Wendywu

Yes, and that means that more than ever it needs to be a natural evolution rather than an imposed system, doesn't it?

Trouble is, how do you start to encourage that growth - in what direction, what with?

It is interesting to think how the RWS came into being. Granted it was based on the GD deck (for the majors), that deck itself was a required study element within the GD and Waite learned his tarot in the GD. So it had a captive audience. And not a lot of competition. It would be hard to recreate those circumstances. I can see that if Ric's vision came true, and tarot dwindled greatly, then any kickstart years into the future would have much less competition.

But how to "seed" it now?
 

gregory

Yes - and now that I come to think of it - how did the Waite-Smith deck "get off the ground" in the first place, I wonder ?
 

Wendywu

He had his own esoteric society. And friends in others. I'm betting everyone he knew bought a set (as friends would) and found that they liked them, and that the cards worked. And it was heaps easier to buy Waite's deck than draw your own having borrowed someone else's to copy. If I'd had to draw my own deck I don't reckon I'd have got past the majors, even if I was only copying!
 

gregory

Wendywu said:
He had his own esoteric society. And friends in others. I'm betting everyone he knew bought a set (as friends would) and found that they liked them, and that the cards worked. And it was heaps easier to buy Waite's deck than draw your own having borrowed someone else's to copy. If I'd had to draw my own deck I don't reckon I'd have got past the majors, even if I was only copying!
:|

I know how you feel....

So the reason it took off was just that he had the contacts to spread the word..